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£5 BH oddity
Possibly a bit early position to be raising KJo but meh.
The guy in the BB insta-shoved the flop, which gave me the impression that he had decided on his move before the cards were dealt in some bizarre stop-and-go sort of play. He had taken one bounty so his head was worth £3.12(?)
The guy to act behind me had been choosing to see every flop but had been folding to a cbet every time. He only got his chips after calling an all in shove with a rag ace and doubling up.
With the BH dynamics, is this a call or fold?
The guy in the BB insta-shoved the flop, which gave me the impression that he had decided on his move before the cards were dealt in some bizarre stop-and-go sort of play. He had taken one bounty so his head was worth £3.12(?)
The guy to act behind me had been choosing to see every flop but had been folding to a cbet every time. He only got his chips after calling an all in shove with a rag ace and doubling up.
With the BH dynamics, is this a call or fold?
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| mohamedlee | Small blind | 40.00 | 40.00 | 5590.00 | |
| BB | Big blind | 80.00 | 120.00 | 2632.50 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| tennet007 | Fold | ||||
| shakinaces | Raise | 240.00 | 360.00 | 2840.00 | |
| eddiesun26 | Fold | ||||
| BUTTON | Call | 240.00 | 600.00 | 2725.00 | |
| mohamedlee | Fold | ||||
| BB | Call | 160.00 | 760.00 | 2472.50 | |
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| BB | All-in | 2472.50 | 3232.50 | 0.00 | |
| shakinaces | ???? | ||||
Comments
And raise a little less pre IMO
I tend towards using 3x UTG and MP / 2.5x CO and BU as a standard at the 30/60 and 40/80 levels in BH because I'm wanting to build a pot (to make it easier to get all in). 2.25x / 2x raises normally come on at the 50/100 level and above.
Is 2x now the standard from even earlier in games?
A caveat to that is obviously if you don't know how to play postflop well then you might get yourself in a mess postflop with marginal hands but you're easily good enough Shakin imo to be able to handle yourself in most situations that are gonna come up. Either way, it's far better to get in tricky spots and ask for advice on marginal post flop decisions than to just go in a shell and think 'I'm scared to play postflop so I'm just gonna wait for the nuts pre' cos you'll never get good by doing that.
Flop is a pretty trivial fold imo. He'd have to be a complete maniac with a history of just donk shoving flops with complete air to make a call here.
What neil said, just fold this particular hand pre UTG, we can be easily dominated and have to fold facing a 3 bet.
Hands that peel pre that dominate us..... AJ, KQ, maybe AK if they don't 3bet...
Hands that peel pre that we dominate.... KT, K9, K8, QJ, QT, Q9, Q8 (offsuit), if they got suited cards I wouldn't be surprised to get peeled by Q2s+ and K2s+.
If we open 33/A9o/Q9s, we prob have to fold to a 3bet too, it's not a reason to not open it.
And we aint UTG
re: KJo in MP
Rightly or wrongly, with a < 40bb stack I've gotten into the habit of removing small pairs, suited cards, connectors etc and opening any broadway combos instead... the theory being that with less post-flop room I'm happy to try and flop top pair or have overs to cbet bluff with.
I might well tighten right up if I'm at an obviously aggro table or have better players to my left, but given the prevalence to get callers in micro stakes games, aiming for top pair seems an OK strategy.
Obviously will need to refine that somewhat if/when I start playing £11-£22 or higher.
Fwiw though, 40bb is still vv deep in MTT, especially on Sky when there are no antes, so I'd still be opening 22+, stuff like 78s, J8s etc, the only time I wouldn't is if the table was super aggro so I wasn't getting to see many flops without being 3bet (but that's super rare). Although this is why I go smaller pre so we have more room for postflop play. It's makes a big difference down the streets... I don't think we should always bet 50% pot but for the sake of the example and to keep all factors the same...
Say we open to 240, button calls and everyone else folds. Pot is 600 (2 x 240 + SB + BB), we bet 300, get a call. Pot is now 1200, we bet 600, get a call. Pot is now 2400, half pot again = 1200 (we only have 1940 chips left before this bet fwiw). Unless we're really tight we aint always gonna have it so we're risking a huge chunk of our stack. We'll have put in 2340 in by the river if we went with this line
Same spot but we open to 160, button calls and everyone else folds. Pot is now 440 (2x 160 + SB + BB), we bet 220, get a call. Pot is now 880, we bet 440, get a call. Pot is 1760 on river and we bet 880.
In total we've put in 1700 chips in the 2nd example. That's 640 chips less (almost 10bb), or 20% of our stack, just cos we put 1 less big blind in pre.
But FWIW this bit in red/bold was my thinking here until this thread - at these levels if I 3x pre then I can 1/2 pot flop and turn and leave myself with a less than pot shove on the river (from 40bb), which I had thought would give me the best option of a double up/picking up a bounty (assuming oppo has 36-40bb themselves obv)
The argument of getting to see more flops (from 2x) is more compelling though.
Also, against weaker opponents we're gonna win pots a lot more often than they do, so it's generally better (imo) to take a lower variance approach and be winning loads of small pots. Fwiw, that example is only based on him flatting all our bets, if he raises any street with our bigger sizing then we're totally stuck, commited to either getting it in or folding, and again when we're playing wide ranges we often won't be strong enough to GII
I don't think I've converted this anywhere near as well to MTT play yet, mind. Particularly toying about with less than 1/2 pot bets... this seems to be something often used by better players (I guess because there are more spots where people are playing with scared money and can be chased away from weak draws more easily as they try to protect their tournament life?)
Anyway, I've seen the results now but my initial thoughts are that it's pretty close. To those that have said this is an easy fold: what range are you putting villain on?
IMO, We can rule out AQ and better (probably KQ too) - These hands are almost always going to check and hope you bet. They don't feel too worried by being outdrawn OTT by one overcard. However, QT and below and they're worried if it checks behind and a K or A comes that they'll go behind - they like their hand now, but not enough to give a free card and so they jam. Then, there's Jx hands. Again, these hands think they might be best now - only one overcard, so they just jam and hope to win the pot there. And then there are the draws - T9 and KT.
I PPTd some scenarios, here's an example:
Our equity is 45% so I think we might just have the required equity. Being a £5 BH there are going to be better spots tho and without a read to suggest villain might shove as wide as 77 here, I do agree that it's a fold. 77 is indeed a strange shove - I mean I can understand the fish mind-set of shoving J9 here but can't understand any logic in them shoving sevens! Oh well, NH
I actually think you can argue a call if we were closing the action as the shove just doesn't add up.