Is my thinking correct and did I play this OK?

CraigSG1

Wondering if I played this ok and for the right reasons.

Its two edged, one to show a few i'm not such a nit and the other to see if my thinking was correct. Was going to show this hand regardless of result as its my thinking I want to check.

Have played J before and know them to be very aggressive and this was the third time in very few hands they had three bet me. So a standard button raise and then he three bets me again. Most of the time I would just call but I need to add some more hands in that I four bet and I would rather do it with this than say AJ as I have less chance of being dominated and have a few more ways to win the pot so I do four bet. I also want to send a message I'm not easy to push around. Is that amount enough? Its the same I would make with AA/KK for example.

I flop pretty well with a gutshot (although i'm aware it completes AK's gutshot) and a FD. Once he checks I figure I have to bet as I would always bet my AA/KK's on that board. I dont like it when he c/raises me but I cant fold now can I? I dont think I can. Got called a donk for this hand but I think I played it fine. Thoughts?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
cactusjac	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£11.94
J	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£20.45
	Your hole cards	8 9
basty2010	Fold
kettle9930	Fold
frank3171	Fold
CraigSG1	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£16.70
cactusjac	Fold
J	Raise		£0.85	£1.30	£19.60
CraigSG1	Raise		£2.70	£4.00	£14.00
J	Call		£2.05	£6.05	£17.55
Flop
		Q J 4
J	Check
CraigSG1	Bet		£3.03	£9.08	£10.97
J	Raise		£9.09	£18.17	£8.46
CraigSG1	All-in		£10.97	£29.14	£0.00
J	Call		£4.91	£34.05	£3.55
J	Show	K Q
CraigSG1	Show	8 9
Turn
		6
River
		8
CraigSG1	Win	Flush to the Jack	£32.65		£32.65

KingBowl

Hi craig I think being aggressive vs this player is a v good idea, we can't let him steamroll us. I think our hand is strong enough to flat pre however, since it just flops so nicely and we have position. Once this flop comes the hand pretty much plays itself, we can't fold so I think you played it fine, nh.

When it comes to selecting a good 4 bet bluff range, think about blockers i.e having an A or K in your hand usually. For example, use a hand like KTo, not strong enough to flat, but good blockers. if we have KcTs, our K automatically halves the combo's of KK he can have (and our T halves the combos of TT he can have) as well as significantly reducing the number of other value combos (AK/KQ for example). Therefore since it narrows his value range , it means he is more likely to be bluffing, and therefore our 4 bet bluff will get through more. Low raggy aces also work well for the same reasons (A4o for example)

Hope this helped

shakinaces

How have any legit (AA/KK/AK maybe QQ, JJ & TT) hands played out when you've 4-bet him?  Does it get lots of folds or does he tend to 5-bet / call?

If we aren't confident of getting a high proportion of folds then I'm not sure there is any value to bluff 4-betting. Maybe there is better value in this if we are both deeper stacked at a MC table though.

FWIW (may get shot down here) I'm not sure how much we need to have a 4-bet bluff range at these levels at all. I think it might be over-complicating things versus almost all the opposition, who themselves tend to have quite (very) tight 3-bet ranges. I think building a good 3-bet calling range is probably a more useful tool.  Appreciate this will change at higher levels / deeper stacks.

It was recommended to me (for these levels) that that the only extension to my 4 and 5-bet range was A4 and A5 suited - for similar reasons to the excellent post above me. You've got a blocker to AA and have reasonable equity vs KK/QQ if it does end up all-in (with a 5-bet shove).

RyanC7

170bb deep 0 point in 4b. Hand plays well post, just peel in pos. 

RyanC7

If he wants to peel 4b's oop with QKo, I'd pretty much exclusively 4b a value range. Not much point in 4b'in 9hi v someone who's gonna put 400bb in with middle pair. 

RyanC7

170bb deep 0 point in 4b. Hand plays well post, just peel in pos. 

AMYBR

4 betting oop here because?

watkin06

i agree I wouldn't be value 4 betting a 9 high ,type of thing isn't always gonna work out well often , if you know the villains game fair enough but ,otherwise...