limping

craigcu12

having started playing cash poker in the live casino, i've discovered the players on these cash tables are constantly allowing cheap flops and knowing I can constantly get a cheap flop, i've began to question how much of my range could be limped in pre. suited connectors, Axs and small pocket pairs, i'm certainly going to be limping, the question i have is, weather I should limp in most suited cards and hands like 98o 97o or will these drain chips long term even in limped pots?

Benchmark

I guess it's a question of success rate. Does everyone limp in, then fold ? The only other snag is, if everyone limps, has the guy behind you got AS or 23 off suit ? If he connects with the flop you'll never know.

Not a maths person, but if you limp every hand, you will only have the best starting hand 1 in 6 times.

So I guess you need to amend your range to ensure you are only entering hands you have a better chance of winning with. Depending on the other players, this could be quite loose.

Obviously, pocket cards are only half the story, but as a rough guide, I would say you need to make your money back on each hand you wouldn't usually play. So, if you would generally win 3BB, every 3rd hand would need to win.

The snag with everyond limping is you only get more than a BB from the customer when they hit too.

I've been known to limp in the early stages of a tourney with poor hands and haven't generally seen a consistent return rate.

GREGHOGG

I don't really get limping

If you are limping to call a raise then why not take the initiative and raise yourself in the first place?

If you are limping and will fold to a raise why enter the pot in the first place?

This being said, I can see the benefit of occasionally limping the button with pretty much any 2 cards, providing the blinds are passive, as we have optimal position post flop.

On the right kind of live cash table, limping with monsters could also have it's benefits, but it's not something I would usually do personally.

F_Ivanovic

Definitely don't limp 98o and 97o unless you are OTB and/or pretty deep with players that are just really bad (eg. they might play super aggressively with 56 on 567 in a 5 way pot thinking it's the nuts - in which case playing hands like 98 are obv good) - again though, would only limp in late position.

You seem to have the right idea about a limping range - SC's that flop very well, small pairs and suited aces and maybe some mid-strength broadway hands (QJo/KJo) 

MattBates

All of this depends on your opponents but my issue with your limping plan is how do you plan on winning decent pots without coolering people? If someone is limping pre (with an obvious range of hands) and exploding into action post flop its pretty easy to play them post flop as its obvious when they have it and what they have.

Are you planning on limping all hands or just certain ones? If your not limping your entire range then IMO you will end up being pretty face up post flop.

BigBluster

In Response to Re: limping:

I don't really get limping If you are limping to call a raise then why not take the initiative and raise yourself in the first place? If you are limping and will fold to a raise why enter the pot in the first place? This being said, I can see the benefit of occasionally limping the button with pretty much any 2 cards, providing the blinds are passive, as we have optimal position post flop. On the right kind of live cash table, limping with monsters could also have it's benefits, but it's not something I would usually do personally.
Posted by GREGHOGG

Mostly it's about controlling the set-mining odds. In 1/2 live games, there are often plenty of players who may only have £100 in front of them or whatever they've pulled out of their wallets. You can stand a raise but not a re-raise in these situations.

F_Ivanovic

Yeah in a 8/9 handed cash game if you get 3 limpers and your in CO with 33 and 100bb eff or less with the limpers there is just no point in raising - to get any folds we'd have to make it like £10 minimum. Even then, if the first player calls it's likely they'll all call and we end up in a situation where we haven't given ourselves favourable set-mining odds and have to c/f with £40 in the middle. In the ideal situation of playing HU in position, we'll do OK in the hand and may be able to steal with a c-bet on good boards - but overall if you look at all the situations that can happen from making a raise then it's more +ev to limp in.

craigcu12

In Response to Re: limping:

All of this depends on your opponents but my issue with your limping plan is how do you plan on winning decent pots without coolering people? If someone is limping pre (with an obvious range of hands) and exploding into action post flop its pretty easy to play them post flop as its obvious when they have it and what they have. Are you planning on limping all hands or just certain ones? If your not limping your entire range then IMO you will end up being pretty face up post flop.
Posted by MattBates

If there is anyone willing to raise things preflop, i'll be certainly keeping my game like it's played online, the thought of doing more llimping in live relate to the times i've got a table of 6-10 limpers who love to gamble. It's the idea of me doing an opening raise the size of 12BB preflop that convinces me i can extend my range towards limping in more stuff and still getting a caller post flop if they hit. They aren't even able to seem from my difference in raise sizes when raising a hand that some hands will be stronger than others. 

ATM i've put my hands seem to be like this

raising is don with middle and high pairs, A10+, KJ+ and QJs.

the hands i've decided will be certtain limped are 65s+, 86s+ 22+ and Ax Kx Qxs

my main questionable hands are hands like 96s, 84s and 76o.

What might help me  better is what are the odds of hitting a flush on the turn or river when i've hit the draw. pot is normally going to be £2 when the flop comes and bets seem to be between £1-£1.50 on the flop, so if i'm going to call a bet, how many callers will I need to still receive the right price?

If people thing i'm giving my game away, i'm not this relates to live poker where tables are filled with  roulette players.

MattBates

Are you talking about limping in pre or overlimping?

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: limping:

Yeah in a 8/9 handed cash game if you get 3 limpers and your in CO with 33 and 100bb eff or less with the limpers there is just no point in raising - to get any folds we'd have to make it like £10 minimum. Even then, if the first player calls it's likely they'll all call and we end up in a situation where we haven't given ourselves favourable set-mining odds and have to c/f with £40 in the middle. In the ideal situation of playing HU in position, we'll do OK in the hand and may be able to steal with a c-bet on good boards - but overall if you look at all the situations that can happen from making a raise then it's more +ev to limp in.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Ye can defo see an argument for overliming with small pairs. 

But if I'm first to enter the pot I will always want to raise. 

GREGHOGG

Limping with 84s? really?

ugh...   

craigcu12

it's about knowing how much of my range can be limped before it turns into a loss.

The thing that got me thinking of doing some limping is knowing just how seriously loose some of these 25/25 live cash players can be, infact some of them go as loose as wanting to call 72o! So the combination of knowing they'll limp in premium hands added to the fact it'll go 6-10 way is want made me start thinking of limping.

craigcu12

In Response to Re: limping:

In Response to Re: limping : Ye can defo see an argument for overliming with small pairs.  But if I'm first to enter the pot I will always want to raise. 
Posted by GREGHOGG

the thing about these live cash tables is i'm almost certainly require to hit the set to cbet the flopp, my opening raise with premium hands on nl25p will be £2-£3 minimum knowing how often they'll call and due to how low the odds are of me hitting a set on the flop, i'm tossing far to much money away if making that raise with these hands, so i might as well just limp in preflop and see it at the cheapest.

BigBluster

"my main questionable hands are hands like 96s, 84s and 76o."

If you're going to limp with any hand like this (not saying this is correct), then do it with a hand that can flop the nuts. Of the three mentioned (excluding quads and boats and straight flushes) only 76o is in any way playable, anything else is in serious jeopardy. Are you really happy hitting a flush with the 84s? Or flopping a straight with the same hand?

Throw them in the bin.

Uridium

I'd like to know which casino you can play no limit with 25p blinds? At the more normal blind levels of £1/1 or £1/2 limping with many longshot hands oop is going to cost you a lot of money over several hours, especially if wily players like raising it up in LP and you have to fold. Everyone seems to do it though, but then I guess as wannabe "pros" we should be doing the opposite to what eveyone else does. If the blinds are "only" 25p then I imagine you can "afford" to mess around a bit.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: limping:

I'd like to know which casino you can play no limit with 25p blinds? At the more normal blind levels of £1/1 or £1/2 limping with many longshot hands oop is going to cost you a lot of money over several hours, especially if wily players like raising it up in LP and you have to fold. Everyone seems to do it though, but then I guess as wannabe "pros" we should be doing the opposite to what eveyone else does. If the blinds are "only" 25p then I imagine you can "afford" to mess around a bit.
Posted by Uridium

Aspers in Newcastle. Think a few other of their casinos scattered around the country also do 25/25p tables.

Slipwater

The standard of live play is (for the most part) woeful, and limping at 1/2 blind level cash tables is – conventional wisdom aside – the norm in many casinos around the country. It’s a way of play that you have to adapt to, and you almost regress a little to the way you learned to play the game.

 

I’m not suggesting you ever limp with large pocket pairs – just play those as standard – but with your low to mid suited connectors or anything you quite fancy seeing a flop with really. The reason I suggest this is that if you’re a semi-decent player your post-flop game is where your edge will reap the rewards.

 

Just understand why you’re doing it and know when to change gears.

BorinLoner

We don't limp particular hands we play situations. That doesn't change when we aren't playing online.

We're on the button and the big blind will fold wide but pays off big amounts post-flop with any piece. - We should limp our big hands and raise with the rest.

We're UTG and know that most of the time a raise won't get folds and limping will see players limp behind and only iso with big hands - We should limp a wide range and raise big with our big hands.

Just don't convince yourself that none of your opponents are going to adapt. You're going to find it really hard to balance your range so even bad players are likely to figure out if you're only raising nutted hands.

Adapt to the individuals. 

rancid

It is really important to understand your oppo range in limped pots and why they do it to achieve a profitable over limp or early position limp range. 

Live cash is 9 players so having a limp range In the first three seats is going to be ok, anything playing from the fourth seat should be a raises.

You just need to learn to play poker versus the various player tendacies you encounter.

Get a feel for the tables and play accordingly.

A lot of live players limp cause they just wanna see a flop, you get some that also limp big hands so.....you need to work out your table. For example one table you maybe able to limp a range but others it just will not be possible.

If you going to limp I would suggest anything that ensures your going to hold the top straight or flush or any set. Also you want to flopping good one pr hands.

THE_LMR

limping is cool

THE_LMR

unless your deep stacked iso/raising causes problems