Live 4 bet shove pre question

GELDY

1st day of 2 day deepstack - now 1:30am finish at 3am

last two tables 9 seats

500/1000/100 blinds - last hand of the level

hero 40k, avg 80k, sitting in BB

early pos 2.5x bet has 3 callers

SB - a loud big stack now raises to 9k

BB wakes up with a pp

pot now 20k, hero has 40k which is 40 bigs but half average

only read on SB is that he is loud and chipped

what pairs can you shove with?

BigBluster

Assume he has a hand and isn't squeezing. Assume the big stack will call. Also, assume rest of the table will fold to your shove.

Putting the villain on any pocket pair, AK, AQ, AJ or AT, mathematically you need a hand that gives you ~40% equity. 55 does, but 44 doesn't.

If you put him on a tighter range: 88+, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, then 99 does but 88 doesn't.

Obviously there are broader considerations than this. It's often best to turn down a positive equity play if losing it stops you making an even better play later. I'd probably want QQ to shove here, as there are still 4 others in the hand.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Live 4 bet shove pre question:

Assume he has a hand and isn't squeezing. Assume the big stack will call. Also, assume rest of the table will fold to your shove. Putting the villain on any pocket pair, AK, AQ, AJ or AT, mathematically you need a hand that gives you ~40% equity. 55 does, but 44 doesn't. If you put him on a tighter range: 88+, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, then 99 does but 88 doesn't. Obviously there are broader considerations than this. It's often best to turn down a positive equity play if losing it stops you making an even better play later. I'd probably want QQ to shove here, as there are still 4 others in the hand.
Posted by BigBluster

Doesn't really matter. The only 2 people that matter are the original opener and the SB raiser. The others have very capped ranges, and if one of them has overcalled with AA/KK then gg wp.

I also don't think we can feasibly put villain on a range that includes ''any pocket pair''. It's quite a small raise (given what is already in the middle) from the worst table position. Obvs occasionally people might do this with 33 etc, but in a vacuum all the pairs up to 9s, maybe 10s are much more likely to peel IMO.

AA/KK and probably QQ are no brainer shoves. JJ is a bit closer. If you have an in game read that the loud villain might be messing around, and the original raiser opens quite light from any position, we could probably jam most pairs and expect to get it through, assuming we don't want a call if we jam 88.

Meh, it depends.

F_Ivanovic

Live players can be "bad" and flat behind UTG's raise with a strong hand. They could also be good and flat here expecting a SB squeeze very often. If they're the average OK player then we can rule out AA/KK from them.

UTG should have a tight range so if he seems a solid player I would respect his raising range there and assume AJs+, KQs and 88+. Despite SB being loud and chipped he's still probably got a pretty strong range here.

Given we're readless I'm probably shipping QQ+ and folding JJ.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Live 4 bet shove pre question:

Live players can be "bad" and flat behind UTG's raise with a strong hand. They could also be good and flat here expecting a SB squeeze very often. If they're the average OK player then we can rule out AA/KK from them. UTG should have a tight range so if he seems a solid player I would respect his raising range there and assume AJs+, KQs and 88+. Despite SB being loud and chipped he's still probably got a pretty strong range here. Given we're readless I'm probably shipping QQ+ and folding JJ.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Do you mean actually folding? or just not jamming cos that was OP's question?

Just thinking, we're 40bb effective afaik and in the BB, it's not an ideal SPR given a decently chunky 3b sqz size but I don't think it forces us to be 3b jamming or folding our entire range.

LmfaoAllin

In Response to Live 4 bet shove pre question:

1st day of 2 day deepstack - now 1:30am finish at 3am last two tables 9 seats 500/1000/100 blinds - last hand of the level hero 40k, avg 80k, sitting in BB early pos 2.5x bet has 3 callers SB - a loud big stack now raises to 9k BB wakes up with a pp pot now 20k, hero has 40k which is 40 bigs but half average only read on SB is that he is loud and chipped what pairs can you shove with?
Posted by GELDY

I may not understand the structure/payouts and it may be in the information provided but for the laymen, have you allready cashed if not how far off are we?

GELDY

still 1.5 hrs to go on day 1a

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: Live 4 bet shove pre question:

In Response to Re: Live 4 bet shove pre question : Do you mean actually folding? or just not jamming cos that was OP's question? Just thinking, we're 40bb effective afaik and in the BB, it's not an ideal SPR given a decently chunky 3b sqz size but I don't think it forces us to be 3b jamming or folding our entire range.
Posted by Lambert180

Yeah - I don't really see how flatting JJ can be profitable in this situation.

GELDY

In Response to Re: Live 4 bet shove pre question:

In Response to Re: Live 4 bet shove pre question : Do you mean actually folding? or just not jamming cos that was OP's question? Just thinking, we're 40bb effective afaik and in the BB, it's not an ideal SPR given a decently chunky 3b sqz size but I don't think it forces us to be 3b jamming or folding our entire range.
Posted by Lambert180

Good point, but i can only think of one hand I might flat here and that is AA.

A flat just invites the original raiser to come over the top with a wider range than he'd call off with or for an original caller to come along for the ride.  and we don't have the odds to set mine and even if the flop is no more then ten high we still don't know where we are. Hence my framing of the question as shove or fold.

jordz16

I doubt im shoving any hand here unless i feel the utg or sb would happily go with hands like jj/ak etc. it would just look way too strong to shove after that sort of action, i wouldnt mind flatting aa/kk/qq if we know we can get lots of value on low flops, also flat calling may get the utg to shove with worse... if the utg and sb were very loose and capable of calling with far worse then yes id be shoving qq+ and maybe folding jj as im sure you would find a better spot if you feel you have an edge.

F_Ivanovic

Flatting 1/4 of your stack would look just as strong, if not stronger, no? But besides that, there is already 21,000 in the middle. If we ship and everyone folds that's a 50% increase to our stack.

If we just flat then there's now 29k in the middle with UTG only having to put in 6500 more into a pot that will be 35.5k - only needing 18% equity to call. If UTG calls then no doubt many of the initial callers will follow suit.

Do we really want to take any hand multi-way with 1/4 of our stack in the middle when we can potentially pick up 50% of our stack uncontested? 

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Live 4 bet shove pre question:

Flatting 1/4 of your stack would look just as strong, if not stronger, no? But besides that, there is already 21,000 in the middle. If we ship and everyone folds that's a 50% increase to our stack. If we just flat then there's now 29k in the middle with UTG only having to put in 6500 more into a pot that will be 35.5k - only needing 18% equity to call. If UTG calls then no doubt many of the initial callers will follow suit. Do we really want to take any hand multi-way with 1/4 of our stack in the middle when we can potentially pick up 50% of our stack uncontested? 
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Yeah if we have AA/KK we obv want the action. As tempting as it would be to flat, esp AA, the danger is the domino effect and we take it 4/5/6 way. Great if we get a 2 4 9r flop (though obvs were never getting away if we've been outflopped), less so if it comes down 9 T J or similar. I think shipping looks weaker and thus more likely to get action when we are in great shape.

I think I'd happily shove QQ and AKs....JJ and AKo are a little closer and will come down to in game feel and reads.

Had a similar thing happen in Vegas in a tournament at the Bellagio. Was in the BB with AA and about 25bb, button limped, SB raised from a stack that only just covered me. I felt he wasn't doing this light as he didn't have the stack nor table position to mess around. I took a good minute to decide on what I felt was the best line. Raising again wasn't an option IMO, it was between flatting and shoving. Flatting was tempting, esp with position on him and I didn't mind if the button came along too. But my concern was if he has a high pair like 10s/Js, I ain't getting his stack on a Q K 4 flop, likewise if he has AK/AQ I ain't getting his stack on a 2 3 T board, and if he has a genuine hand like I think he does have, he's probably calling a shove.....so I shoved, he tank called with 99 and we held.

The icing on the cake was that he muttered to himself ''that's the worst I've ever seen anyone play aces, but it looked so much like AK''

Matt237

Put the 3better on AK and jam any pair

jordz16

In Response to Re: Live 4 bet shove pre question:

Flatting 1/4 of your stack would look just as strong, if not stronger, no? But besides that, there is already 21,000 in the middle. If we ship and everyone folds that's a 50% increase to our stack. If we just flat then there's now 29k in the middle with UTG only having to put in 6500 more into a pot that will be 35.5k - only needing 18% equity to call. If UTG calls then no doubt many of the initial callers will follow suit. Do we really want to take any hand multi-way with 1/4 of our stack in the middle when we can potentially pick up 50% of our stack uncontested? 
Posted by F_Ivanovic

If we believe we are up against good players who will notice that this is in fact a strong move then yes id be shoving... but generally when im playing live tournies i notice the poorer players are flatting 3 bets pre when they really do not have the odds to do so, so unless we have the rep of being a good player and capable of slow playing a big hand then i think its fine.

there are so many factors which havent been mentioned which ultimately decide how you should play the hand, most notably the dynamic and how you are perceived at the table

GELDY

image

only recently moved to the table when the third table broke

but I'm an aged gentleman and will normally be assumed to be a nit viewless

utg and a couple of others know I'm more loosie goosie than that but critically SB 3-better doesn't. all he knows is that i think it is the caffeine in fizzy drinks that make you want to pee not the fizz that someone had suggested. 

GELDY

ok, so the general consensus is QQ+

which assuming the SB is similiary endowed with range assigning skills means he'll fold a reasonable part of his squeezing range

which will leave us getting well over 50:50

and so we can shove any pair, no?