Could/should this have been challenged?

hhyftrftdr

Playing a sat at Golden Nugget last week, for a random MTT in Aruba. We are a couple hours or so into it, has a reasonable structure, but none of this really matters!

Player A and Player B are in a hand. Player A has c/c the flop, c/r the turn and moved all in on the river. Player B goes into the tank. After a couple of minutes, another player at the table calls the clock, and the TD comes over and says his spiel (you have a minute to act, I will count down from 10 and at zero your hand is dead if you haven't acted).

A few orbits before this, Player B had the clock called on him, the TD counted to zero and as he hadn't acted, his hand was dead. He didn't fold, just left his cards in front of him and the dealer mucked.

Fast forward to this clock. The TD makes it to zero. Player B still hasn't acted. About a second after zero, maybe slightly more, Player B throws over a chip to call, Player A mucks without showing, says 'nice call, good luck' and wanders off, and Player B scoops the pot.

Now to the crux, could or should Player A, or myself or anyone at the table, have challenged this? No-one seemed to bat an eyelid about the fact he called after his hand is effectively dead.

Thoughts?

Slipwater

I would have piped up and reminded the TD about his own rules. I guess it's fair enough if he reached zero and the guy spins the call at roughly the same time, so it's ambiguous, but a second after zero, maybe slightly more cannot really be disputed.

SolarCarro

Yep, his hand is dead but the other guy should showdown to win the pot, by mucking and walking off he probably invokes this rule...

Floor People- Floor people are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as the top priority in the decision-making process. Unusual circumstances can on occasion dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over the technical rules. The floor person's decision is final.

hhyftrftdr

So for example, Player B makes his call which is somewhere between 1 and 2 seconds too late, Player A doesn't do anything with his cards, doesn't show or muck or give any info about his hand strength, and instead queries that the call is too late to the TD, what do you think the outcome would've been?

Appreciate its just speculating, but I guess his hand has to be deemed dead according to the TD's own rules?

GELDY

1. nobody other than the two involved should be getting involved once the clock has been called

2. others can always question what happened afterwards

3. it depends how pedantic the TD is. Unless there had been an overt end of hand action from the other player the call will often be allowed to stand. but it would be appropriate to give a warning that the next time he has the clock called on him the action has to be clearly before the clock. 

Sir-Gary

An interesting one. First anyone else at the table has no say or input they were not involved in the hand at this stage. They have the right to complain if they so wish at the handling of the incident by the TD, but this has no influence on the outcome.

player B's cards had actually not been declared dead nor had they been mucked before he called. It would appear that the Td, the dealer and even player A considered the final zero meant act now and the act of picking up the chip in immediately after the zero and throwing it in was in with the spirit of it(it will take 1-2secs to act). I would be interested what the TD would do though if player A said he called after the zero and therefore his hand should be folded. 

hhyftrftdr

The words of the TD both times were 'if you haven't acted by zero then your hand is dead', or words to that effect. So zero wasn't an indication that he needs to act now or lose the pot, is what I deduced from that sentence.

Wonder whether they would have let it slide had Player A kicked up a fuss or if they would have adhered to there own rules?

Sir-Gary

A fun one as I said and you also have noticed the "what if"

I suspect they would go with what they said i.e. fold the hand.

I also suspect they would go with the what the general feeling of the table was even though they shouldn't, lets be serious they want to keep their regulars happy. It happens but it shouldn't

Phantom66

I would assume that the actions have to stand.

1st situation dealer mucks and hand dead.

2nd situation a bet is made before the muck.

The hyperthetical is the interesting one what if player objects to the late bet as was made after 0. Cant comment on that with any authority but if the actions take precedence over the verbal announcement. Ie hand is live until player or dealer mucks then I do wonder if the player concerned is looking for a visual tell - the tiniest micro expression that his opponent is relieved or disappointed when the clock hits zero?

Phantom66

I would assume that the actions have to stand.

1st situation dealer mucks and hand dead.

2nd situation a bet is made before the muck.

The hyperthetical is the interesting one what if player objects to the late bet as was made after 0. Cant comment on that with any authority but if the actions take precedence over the verbal announcement. Ie hand is live until player or dealer mucks then I do wonder if the player concerned is looking for a visual tell - the tiniest micro expression that his opponent is relieved or disappointed when the clock hits zero?

hhyftrftdr

Will let you guys into a little secret!

Player A was me! Rest of the above is correct. I just mucked my hand and walked off, wishing the table gl as I did. Even though I knew he'd called too late, it kinda didn't register in my mind until later on that evening when I was steaming off on the slots.

So with the benefit of hindsight I did wonder if I'd just done nothing with my hand and said he'd called late, would the TD have deemed the other guys hand dead?

In the moment I was more annoyed with myself for getting in a pickle with 6 high and then getting kinda heroed on the river by him. As if a young English kid would be bluffing in that spot