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What does it take to win (or even final table) in a big field MTT?
I’ve been playing poker now for about 3 ½ years or so. In that time I’ve managed to win a couple of small buy in MTT’s & run deep in a few others but for the life of me I cannot seem to go really deep in any of the bigger tourneys. In all the times I’ve played the open (or whatever it may be at 8pm on any given night) I’ve only ever cashed twice and even then it was the lowest echelons. I just can’t seem to go any deeper. In fact my best ever finish was 40th place sometime early last year if I remember correctly. Maybe it’s to do with the bigger fields or maybe it’s something more than that? I was thinking about this last night whilst scraping into the cash for only the 2nd time & I’ve come to the conclusions that there are 3 things you need in order to win any MTT with decent size fields.
1 – You have to at least understand the fundamental basics of the game.
Personally, I’ve never heard of a complete newbie to the game taking down any MTT let alone one with 400/500+ runners in it. I know that when I first started out I wanted to be involved & used to play pretty much literally every hand because I thought that it was worth seeing a flop because “you never know what might come out”. In a structured MTT you just can’t do this simply because the miracle flops are so called for a reason & before you know it you’ve lost your chips chasing one. You have to understand the importance of position, bet sizing & when to move & fold. It also helps if you’ve a reasonable understanding of mathematics for working out odds (although from a personal point of view I often end up going with instinct simply because of the amount of decision time you get, although I am slowly getting better). Without knowing & understanding these fundamental basics of the game you’re generally gonna get nowhere very fast (not to mention broke very quickly!).
2 – You’ve got to make fewer mistakes than anyone else in the field.
Poker is a game of incomplete information. In the vast majority of situations you’ve got to take into account things you know for certain (you know your hole cards & community cards), along with things you know about your opponent (how he plays in any given situation) & try to use that information to make a judgement as to what his likely holding is & therefore make a decision on what to do. As good as people are at this game, mistakes are inevitable. Everyone, without exception, will make them at one stage or another of a tournament. Some will cost you relatively few chips & some will cost you your entire tournament. Now imo, this is one of the main reasons why certain players always seem to be at final tables (think Ivey, Negreanu, etc) & not just in the major events but even on here too. This is a skill that can (and generally must) be learned if you want to do well in these things more often than not.
3 – You will always need the poker gods & variance to be on your side when it’s your turn to win.
Again, I’ve never heard of any single player who has either won or gone very deep in a large field MTT without getting lucky at some stage. I have needed some major luck every single time I’ve gone deep in any tournament. To be fair, I even needed a huge slice of luck when I cashed last night as there was one hand when we were still a long way from the cash bubble where I managed to run my AJ into AK. Through a bad judgement call on my part, my entire tournament was on the line when I was a huge underdog. As it happens I got very lucky. But that’s the beauty of this game. With a little luck at the right time it can be anyone’s night. Even when someone's made a bad judgement call.
So my conclusion......................................................................................
Honestly, I don’t know. There’s obvious skills that I still need to learn that will help me in my quest for that 1st big payday but even then I’m in the hands of the poker gods.
And there you have it. These are just my views & I’m very interested to see everyone’s take on this. Maybe there’s even more to it than this & I’ve missed something out?
Regards
Jay (aka silentbob)
Comments
i would only add that you could try loosening up early on,and playing your big hands strong,as early on people seem to call with 2nd pair e.t.c......
good luck,hope to meet you on the ft any time soon......
I think the key thing on making a fina table, is not being scared to risk your tourny life at any point, if it is the right move for long term success.
Eg, being aggressive around about bubble times, making moves with weak hands, betting big on the river when u have missed a draw and u feel ur opponent is weak etc etc etc.
As for winning, Im the master of blowing huge stacks, so ill let someone else answer that one.
DOHH
I think all your points are valid, the only thing I would generically add would be to selectively up your aggression as the tournie goes on, but luck will always have to play a part in large mtt's.
As Phil says, you need luck, patience and chips, together with a lot of confidence. If you've got a monster hand, get your chips in first and try to maximize your returns. If you've got a hand that makes you think you may not be favourite to take down the pot, then don't waste chips chasing it, just get out. The odds are against that straight, or whatever, falling in on the river - that's why they're called miracle cards.
In my opinion, Dohhhhhh's got it spot on when he says be aggressive the deeper you get. This is the biggest reason why I fail to win more than I should. Just in the TKO on Tuesday, I was second after 30 minutes, then 6th or 7th for a time, but ended up 141st because I was scared to risk my chips in the later stages.
Last weekend, I was playing in a tourney on another site. There were 180 runners and at one point my stack was down to just three figures, but I hit a patch where I couldn't lose and started to bet big because I instinctively knew I was going to win the pot. I actually ended up winning it (my first tourney win) because I was aggressive. Obviously, I lost my bottle by Tuesday, but the examples still a good one.
Be aggressive in the later stages and maximize your returns when you've got the stronger hands.
Graham
What you dont want is bad luck .. other than that
If your big stack pressure when your in position .. lean on small stacks
If your middle stack .. dont gamble grind it to ladder (assuming you have at least 10 BB)
If your short stack .. go for the gamble shove and shove again, you have nothing to lose and every thing to gain ..
It all sounds easy but, at all stages you need to be hitting some cards and even more late on when the blinds start to make it a "c rap shoot"
Conclusion .. You need a poker fairy sitting on your shoulder as the tournament nears the end .... glk and great post .. (ignore the muppets)
I looked at the ''hot-o-meter'' tonight (first time I've ever looked at it) and I think I've sussed why I can't get through the fish. I only looked at a few hands and apparently J8 is a ''top hand'' I'm sure there are lots of other ''top hands'' that I've been discarding. At least I now know why my raises keep getting called with junk.
Sorry to divert the thread Bob ............. great post!
You summed up 3 good factors there Bob. All important and as Benny says you do need an amount of luck. Dohhhhhhh also makes good points regarding aggression and the will to win (or die) when necessary. All very valuable advice and not much I could add to them.
The thing I think a lot of players fail to recognise is that there are dynamics to any tournament which call for decisions on your part. This has little to do with maths or the cards you hold. You should at all times be aware of your position in the tournament, you should know every player's stack at your table and know what each player is likely to do as the tournament evolves. Short stacks imo are not always the ones to attack. Mid-stacks are easier targets as the bubble nears, There is a balance between chip conservation and stack building that needs to be managed throughout, but particularly in the end game.
The one common fault of most players is ''dipping for the line'' too soon. Timing is everything and good cards help. I once heard a very good tournament player say that it's a succession of scenarios that need to be judged. That's very deep but so true.
Patience Patience and Patience early
Proper poker in the middle with a bit of thieving etc
And aggression aggression aggression towards the end.
Simples
ive only been playing online for about 3 months now and managed to win with 1280 people playing!
i played as tight as i could to start with and played good hands aggresive and doubled up a few times.
before i knew it i was on the final table!!!!
i played the same style and managed to win!!
i did get lucky along the way but i think you need alot of luck to win and a bit of skill.
ive only got a bit of skill as i havnt been playing long!
id say keep grinding away and you will get a good win eventually
Im all for bullying short stacks for any 2. Theres 3 types of short stacks. Theres stacks that are shorter than me, but not neccesserily 'short' in relation to the tourny average, I just play normal aggressive, position poker against these guys.....
Theres stacks that are in the 7-15 BB region. These guys are gonna be looking to shove or pass, they wont, or at least they shouldnt be, calling to see a flop with this stack. However they do have enough chips to pass. Again, Id be putting pressure on in positon, or from the small blind into his BB in an unraised pot, and happy to do this again with any 2. (Cards r irellevant because the raise size should be enough to get him to fold, but not too much to commit yourself to the hand - so u should never have to show ur hand if the play works)
The third type of short stack is the desperation stage, where he has 5 or less big blinds. Here the bloke is gonna have to shove. Within this catagory though, theres players who have quite happily allowed the blinds to grind them down. Theres a good chance that these guys will continue to pass, until they have a pair/ak aq etc. The other type is the guy whos just had a car crash, hes likely to have just taken a big hit with a big hand v big hand, or made a move which has gone wrong. He's gonna call wide, hes obviously not scared to gamble, and could be tilting, so avoid him with weak hands, find an easier target.
As for taking a race, Im happy to do that 100% of the time against a significantly lower stack, for 3 reasons.
1 - He cant hurt me...
2 - My aim is to final table, not cash, so opportunities like this are perfect for building a huge stack.
3 - If I get my money in first for a 50-50 shot, Im gonna make him fold some of the time, which makes me a favourite over time. HE HAS TO MAKE THE CALL, before it becomes a race. My calling range is obviously alot narrower than my shoving/raising range against shorties.
A big stack is so powerful, it brings with it huge respect, I love building one, when I can figure out what to do with a huge en, (which apparently is nothing???) I'll be alright! lol
GL, DOHH
OK so your big stack and nearing the final table or nearing the bubble, your in position on the button, every one's passed just you and the SB and BB small stack SB small medium stack BB... who has the biggest FEAR, you for going for the win or the short/medium stacks knowing if they call your raise they out ?? It's all about TIMING and looking for opportunities at that stage ....glk mate never let FEAR stop you going fr the win !!