Push/Fold Nash Charts put into action

StayOrGo

I don't understand, are you trying disprove the fact that Nash charts are always +EV no matter what.

Make sure you're looking at the right charts btw, obviously the nash ranges aren't the same HU as 6max or fullring. 

There so many caveats to it, the main one being that just because it's +EV it doesn't mean it's the best way to play the hand. The second, is kinda stating the obvious but nash is all +EV from a chipEV point of view, not necessarily a £EV point of view. 

For instance if it's the stone bubble of the roller, someone jams 8xBB and for some reason you know 100% he has KJs, you are in the BB with A2o and 7xbb, but someone on another table has 1xbb. Is it +chipEV to call, definitely, is it +£EV to call, I aint done the maths but I'd be pretty confident it isn't.

These factors are going to come in to play far more often when you're playing satellites so it's probably not a great format to choose to test it out because ICM is soooo huge in satellites and nash doesn't account for ICM. 

Glgl though.

StayOrGo

OK, time to test these Push/Fold charts out.

I am going to play some Hyper Turbo Satellites. Where you start with only 10BB each. (Anties from the start too)

Will assume everyone is playing optimally and call shoves if I think I have /> 55% against their range.

Wish me luck!

Will report progress with results as the trial progresses.

Cheers,

Graham

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OK, in reality I have to adjust for ICM and pot odds consideration when it gets very shallow.

There aren't that many Hyper Turbo Sats, but I've just tried a few (Average duration 10 minutes each)

Mixed results, but clearly small sample size:

AMOUNT OF GAMES    STAKE         TOTAL STAKE     RETURNS     PROFIT/LOSS AT STAKE LEV

           4                      $22                  $88               $86.28                 - $1.72                
           3                      $7.50               $22.50           $44                        $21.50
           10                    $3.50               $35                $44.16                   $9.16
           1                      $30                  $30                $0                       - $30

Will keep updating this post.

Cheers,

Graham 

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: Push/Fold Nash Charts put into action:

I don't understand, are you trying disprove the fact that Nash charts are always +EV no matter what. Make sure you're looking at the right charts btw, obviously the nash ranges aren't the same HU as 6max or fullring.  There so many caveats to it, the main one being that just because it's +EV it doesn't mean it's the best way to play the hand. The second, is kinda stating the obvious but nash is all +EV from a chipEV point of view, not necessarily a £EV point of view.  For instance if it's the stone bubble of the roller, someone jams 8xBB and for some reason you know 100% he has KJs, you are in the BB with A2o and 7xbb, but someone on another table has 1xbb. Is it +chipEV to call, definitely, is it +£EV to call, I aint done the maths but I'd be pretty confident it isn't. These factors are going to come in to play far more often when you're playing satellites so it's probably not a great format to choose to test it out because ICM is soooo huge in satellites and nash doesn't account for ICM.  Glgl though.
Posted by Lambert180

Thanks for the feedback Lambert.

I'm not trying to disprove the Nash Charts, in fact, I'm hoping it will prove the opposite. :=)

Clearly there are ICM and pot odds caveats, however I am trying to play in accordance with the Nash Charts at the early stages.
 
So we'll see how it goes. I'm just trying to see if there is money to be made on these Hyper-Turbo's, by applying the Nash principle, or whether too many players are already playing optimally.

It's just a little experiment.

Cheers,

Graham

P.S. Yes I'm looking at the rights charts, 6 max, full ring, heads up, number of BB's etc. Although when it's like 8 or 5 handed, I go by the full ring and six max charts respectively, which won't be entirely accurate, but close.

GELDY

Nash (RIP) was a genius

but that doesn't mean it's optimal play

like the idea of an experiment though

but you need a control

ie

play 50% of your sample as per Nash 

and  50% as per Graham

and then see how they compare

now that would be interesting

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: Push/Fold Nash Charts put into action:

Nash (RIP) was a genius but that doesn't mean it's optimal play like the idea of an experiment though but you need a control ie play 50% of your sample as per Nash  and  50% as per Graham and then see how they compare now that would be interesting
Posted by GELDY

Yeh, that's a thought, although to be honest, the difference between my normal play and this experiment is not that much. Possibly shoving wider with suited cards now.

It's early stages but I think this is +EV £ compared to my previous folds of these hands. But time will tell.

Thanks for the feedback Geldy.

Cheers,

Graham

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: Push/Fold Nash Charts put into action:

Nash (RIP) was a genius but that doesn't mean it's optimal play like the idea of an experiment though but you need a control ie play 50% of your sample as per Nash  and  50% as per Graham and then see how they compare now that would be interesting
Posted by GELDY

Hi Geldy, to respond more fully to your post.

I guess what I'm doing is a Hybrid. "Nash" early on, then "Graham" at latter stages because of ICM, shallowness etc.

So I am trying my best to win, but adjusting my shove ranges, based on Nash charts, for the first couple of levels.

So the "control" would be my old range/play in the first couple of levels, but I don't really want to try this as I do believe Nash ranges to be better and more informed than my previous ranges.

Interesting feedback though, thanks!

I guess what I want to find out is if Nash/Graham combo can make a decent profit!

Cheers,

Graham