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Table randomising

edited August 2015 in Poker Chat
why everytime you get down too the last 2 tables is 1 always chip heavy..
tiggertoo5760.63
PASSASPLIF4928.72
-PIMPIN-3005.01
oldenglish2130.64
versus...
IC_DEADPPL10453.50
footsie6610396.27
churchy188374.03
trevil256108.68
onejohnb2842.52
 happens all the time and does not seem fair when 1 table has 66%of chips in play.

Comments

  • edited August 2015
    In Response to Table randomising:
    why everytime you get down too the last 2 tables is 1 always chip heavy.. tiggertoo 5760.63 PASSASPLIF 4928.72 -PIMPIN- 3005.01 oldenglish 2130.64 versus... IC_DEADPPL 10453.50 footsie66 10396.27 churchy18 8374.03 trevil25 6108.68 onejohnb 2842.52  happens all the time and does not seem fair when 1 table has 66%of chips in play.
    Posted by churchy18
    So how do you make a random table draw fair?
  • edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: Table randomising:
    In Response to Table randomising : So how do you make a random table draw fair?
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    If its random all the time how does it keep having 1 table with 33% of chips in play?
  • edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: Table randomising:
    In Response to Re: Table randomising : If its random all the time how does it keep having 1 table with 33% of chips in play?
    Posted by churchy18
    So describe to me how random looks like?
  • edited August 2015
    TBF.... I have thought this myself when deep.... but I dont have enough volume in mtts to really comment
  • edited August 2015
    Well harry i would imagine even with random tables it would still take into account chip stacks at the time of randomising and evenly spread them about tables.

    Do you not think its a bit unfair that 2/3rds of the chips are on 1 table? when down too so few?

    What's this fuss about true randomness?

    Perhaps you have wondered how predictable machines like computers can generate randomness. In reality, most random numbers used in computer programs are pseudo-random, which means they are generated in a predictable fashion using a mathematical formula. This is fine for many purposes, but it may not be random in the way you expect if you're used to dice rolls and lottery drawings.

     

  • edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: Table randomising:
    Well harry i would imagine even with random tables it would still take into account chip stacks at the time of randomising and evenly spread them about tables. Do you not think its a bit unfair that 2/3rds of the chips are on 1 table? when down too so few? What's this fuss about true randomness? Perhaps you have wondered how predictable machines like computers can generate randomness. In reality, most random numbers used in computer programs are pseudo-random , which means they are generated in a predictable fashion using a mathematical formula. This is fine for many purposes, but it may not be random in the way you expect if you're used to dice rolls and lottery drawings.  
    Posted by churchy18
    I don't see why it is unfair? Surely an aspect of poker is being able to adjust to your surroundings. Sounds like it might be something you want to work on. And 2/3 of chips on one table when there are only 2 tables left is hardly an earth shatteringly slanted distribution.
  • edited August 2015
    All im meaning is its not very random when it continuosly happens

    As for the fairness part when you are sat at a table five handed and 4 sat at your table have more than any1 else on the other 4 handed table does not seem that fair or random.


  • edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: Table randomising:
    Well harry i would imagine even with random tables it would still take into account chip stacks at the time of randomising and evenly spread them about tables. Do you not think its a bit unfair that 2/3rds of the chips are on 1 table? when down too so few? What's this fuss about true randomness? Perhaps you have wondered how predictable machines like computers can generate randomness. In reality, most random numbers used in computer programs are pseudo-random , which means they are generated in a predictable fashion using a mathematical formula. This is fine for many purposes, but it may not be random in the way you expect if you're used to dice rolls and lottery drawings.  
    Posted by churchy18
    So you want the table to not be random based on this statement!
  • edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: Table randomising:
    All im meaning is its not very random when it continuosly happens
    Posted by churchy18
    But does it continuously happen? What sample size are we using to determine that it can't be random cos it happens all the time?

    Honestly Churchy, shall we just put this down to your monthly mini breakdown where you question things about the site? ;)
  • edited August 2015
    so you can't randomly seat the stacks and not players?
  • edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: Table randomising:
    Well harry i would imagine even with random tables it would still take into account chip stacks at the time of randomising and evenly spread them about tables.
    If the RNG took chip stacks into account it wouldn't be random.

    You will get, say 3 of the 4 biggest stacks on the table together about half of the time.

    How big those big stacks are, and their relation to the other stacks is not a feature of the randomness.

  • edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: Table randomising:
    In Response to Re: Table randomising : But does it continuously happen? What sample size are we using to determine that it can't be random cos it happens all the time? Honestly Churchy, shall we just put this down to your monthly mini breakdown where you question things about the site? ;)
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    Only asking a simple question seems fair enogh too me

    P.S still going strong :@}
  • edited August 2015

    It's like alot of things in poker.

    "Why does the big stack always win flips?"

    "Why does an ace always come when I've got KK?"

    "Why does the river always complete a flush?"

    "Why does Bates never lose an all in?"

    "Why do they always ****** get there?"

    It doesn't constantly happen,  It's just your memory remembering the times it does. 

    And no player in the World will have a big enough sample size of deep runs to conclude wether there is any bias in the table draws.

    You'd need to make the final few tables hundreds of thousands of times before you can make any conclusions about it being dodgy. 




  • edited August 2015
    the fact its random means it will be likely be sufficently weighted on one table as if you are down to 2 tables then often the top 3 will have more chips than the bottom 9 combined, so 2 of them have to be on the same table and occasionally all 3 will be and it will be massively weighted.... i dont think it really ever affects things though because MTT's are all about adjusting to the many variables that you are presented with 
  • edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: Table randomising:
    In Response to Re: Table randomising : If the RNG took chip stacks into account it wouldn't be random. You will get, say 3 of the 4 biggest stacks on the table together about half of the time. How big those big stacks are, and their relation to the other stacks is not a feature of the randomness.
    Posted by FCHD

    End of thread.
  • edited August 2015
    the answer is a combination of DOHHHHHHHH (selective memory)
    and mathematics (ratios and two-sidedness)

    a simple example has the larger table 50% bigger than the smaller one 27% of the time, (and the more extreme the individual chipstacks the more extreme the comparison)

    each player has a random number of chips between 100 and 10,000 assuming 2 tables of 5 players.
    then the likelihood that one table is x% the size of the other is roughly

    100% 100%
    110% 81%
    120% 62%
    130% 47%
    140% 36%
    150% 27%
    160% 19%
    170% 14%
    180% 10%
    190% 8%
    200% 6%
     
  • edited August 2015
    and if there was one big stack with 20,000 chips that becomes 58% of the time, and 23% of the time one table has twice as many chips as the other.

    100% 100%
    110% 93%
    120% 84%
    130% 75%
    140% 65%
    150% 58%
    160% 50%
    170% 42%
    180% 34%
    190% 28%
    200% 23%
  • edited August 2015
    Ive done 6 random tables for the hell of it.
    Curiously enough the total stack sizes leans towards the more populated table.
    tiggertoo5760.6330%
    PASSASPLIF4928.72
    -PIMPIN-3005.01
    oldenglish2130.64
    verse  
    IC_DEADPPL10453.5070%
    footsie6610396.27
    churchy188374.03
    trevil256108.68
    onejohnb2842.52
       
    -PIMPIN-3005.0139%
    oldenglish2130.64
    IC_DEADPPL10453.5
    tiggertoo5760.63
       
    churchy188374.0361%
    footsie6610396.27
    trevil256108.68
    onejohnb2842.52
    PASSASPLIF4928.72
       
    onejohnb2842.5250%
    churchy188374.03
    tiggertoo5760.63
    IC_DEADPPL10453.50
       
    trevil256108.6850%
    -PIMPIN-3005.01
    oldenglish2130.64
    PASSASPLIF4928.72
    footsie6610396.27
       
    -PIMPIN-3005.0130%
    churchy188374.03
    onejohnb2842.52
    oldenglish2130.64
       
    trevil256108.6870%
    PASSASPLIF4928.72
    tiggertoo5760.63
    IC_DEADPPL10453.5
    footsie6610396.27
       
    churchy188374.0335%
    tiggertoo5760.63
    -PIMPIN-3005.01
    oldenglish2130.64
       
    trevil256108.6865%
    IC_DEADPPL10453.50
    footsie6610396.27
    onejohnb2842.52
    PASSASPLIF4928.72
       
    onejohnb2842.5240%
    tiggertoo5760.63
    IC_DEADPPL10453.5
    -PIMPIN-3005.01
       
    oldenglish2130.6460%
    PASSASPLIF4928.72
    footsie6610396.27
    trevil256108.68
    churchy188374.03
  • edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: Table randomising:
    the answer is a combination of DOHHHHHHHH (selective memory) and mathematics (ratios and two-sidedness) a simple example has the larger table 50% bigger than the smaller one 27% of the time, (and the more extreme the individual chipstacks the more extreme the comparison) each player has a random number of chips between 100 and 10,000 assuming 2 tables of 5 players. then the likelihood that one table is x% the size of the other is roughly 100% 100% 110% 81% 120% 62% 130% 47% 140% 36% 150% 27% 160% 19% 170% 14% 180% 10% 190% 8% 200% 6%  
    Posted by GELDY
    I don't understand the maths, but assuming that is correct, it's a great analysis, & way to look at it.

    As with all these theories, of course, we need to look for motive.

    Why WOULD a regulated gaming site  - more especially a large one, where poker is a small part of the whole - risk it's licence, name & integrity by messing with the natural order of things?

    The conspiracy theorists, the "big stack always wins" guys, always say the same thing - poker sites want players to lose their money as quickly as possible, so they will then play another game.
     
    In reality, of course, poker sites want the complete opposite. They want players to stay on the site as long as possible, & for players to be offered a good, fair, game, so they remain players for longer.  Why would they not? The longer players survive, the more revenue they generate.
  • edited August 2015
    Our brain is an excellent pattern-matching device," said Babar Zafar, a lead developer at Spotify, in an interview for Tech Tent on the BBC World Service.

    "It will find patterns where there aren't any."

    The whole article.






  • edited August 2015
    Exactly mumsie

    We might think getting lop sided tables is not random but it is the opposite
    Always getting uniform tables is not random
    People want their music to be uniformly shuffled so Spotify deliberately do not make it random. They mess with it. Imagine what peeps would say if a poker site deliberately messed with the table selection to avoid lop sidedness!



  • edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: Table randomising:
    Exactly mumsie We might think getting lop sided tables is not random but it is the opposite Always getting uniform tables is not random People want their music to be uniformly shuffled so Spotify deliberately do not make it random. They mess with it. Imagine what peeps would say if a poker site deliberately messed with the table selection to avoid lop sidedness!
    Posted by GELDY

    Im trying to work out how many different ways there are of arranging 9 items in groups of 5 and 4.

    1) where the exact seating doesnt matter. Because its total table stack sizes thats being looked at.

    And 

    2) exact seating matters .To deal with, why does the big stack / lose player always seem to sit on my left brigade.

    who knows the math.                      Ssssssss ?
  • edited August 2015

    ^^^^

    2 more great posts.

    And as GELDY states, if the tables were organised so they are uniform as to stack sizes, that would be the exact opposite of random.

    Poker often seems unfair, in so many ways. And it is. But it's a double edged sword, as it is unfair in our favour just as often as it is unfair against us.

    Drawn against a table of big stacks is not always a bad thing, either. (BH's may be an exception, but even that is debatable). Ask a winning player if he wants the table with the big stacks or the table with the small stacks, & I know what their answer will be - the big stacks. Every time.
     
    The whole topic of how our minds work in these situations is utterly fascinating to me.
     
    "pattern matching", as mentioned by mumsie, is so powerful, too. It's similar in a way to Group Think, in which peer pressure encourages us all to think along the same lines on certain topics.
     
    If anyone would like to see an example of Group Think, go back though this Forum to when Sky Poker change things, or introduce some Promos. The Alpha Male says it is bad, & so we all follow. He must be right, right?

    Fascinating stuff.   
     
  • edited August 2015
    Does the phrase "table balancing" trick our brain to think that things should be equally balanced?
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