Todays UKOPS M/E Final Table 3 left, was I right to shove?

StayOrGo

Hi guys,

Interested in your thoughts here. 3 handed, I have just over 11 BB's on the button, both opponents have me well covered.
 
Is KT a min raise, then fold to re-raise or just a straight all in?

I'm really not sure, I think 11.5BB's may have been just too much to shove, so interested in your feedback. Was it the right play? Do I just question it because of the result? (got called by KQ)

For a bit of fun, there is a doodle poll below, either yes, no, or not sure(no options work)

http://doodle.com/poll/q3zyen9psd8dc8nhnft929dy/admin#table

Hand history below:

Cheers,

Graham


Hand History #967679148 (01:19 15/11/2015)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancelegindSmall blind 5000.005000.00544809.76morgan101Big blind 10000.0015000.00280685.24 Your hole cards10K   StayOrGoAll-in 114505.00129505.000.00legindCall 109505.00239010.00435304.76morgan101Fold    legindShowQK   StayOrGoShow10K   Flop  9K5   Turn  K   River  3   legindWinThree Kings239010.00 674314.76

legind

It was me you shoved against and in your position i would of done the same as you

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: Todays UKOPS M/E Final Table 3 left, was I right to shove?:

It was me you shoved against and in your position i would of done the same as you
Posted by legind

Thx for the feedback and congratulations on the win!

All the best,

Graham

TeddyBloat

limping

unknown_username

KTo is 60% fav against a random hand. 

Its 42% 29 29 against two random handies.

Also, the next 2 players might fold anyway.

(The poll says poll closed)

NoseyBonk

PS - no need to link to an external site to run a poll ;-)

rspca12

wp last nght mate yes its a jam

unknown_username

I like the Jam on the Button. I Don't think I could limp here knowing that if I don't hit, I would literally be shoving every hand after that with any 2.

omm

In Response to Re: Todays UKOPS M/E Final Table 3 left, was I right to shove?:

limping
Posted by TeddyBloat

Interesting, what is the range u would be limping vs raising/jamming and how often? Does not having antes make limping more attractive?

Sir-Gary

this is a shove for me, you need to get lucky sometime and if you leave it to late you will still have no chips if you do get lucky.

TeddyBloat

I wouldn't (and dont) have a readless minraising range from the button @11bb eff. 3 handed.

We can play wider ranges, induce more mistakes and preserve positional advantage.

Wider ranges

When we minr we create a pot of 3.5bb. 

@ 25bb eff the BB has to risk 24bb to "win" that pot when 3bet shoving as a bluff.

@ 11bb eff the reward of 3.5bb is still the same but he now only has to risk 10bb to win it.

3 bet shoving therefore becomes much more attractive. This will obviously hurt us and without a limping range we will be forced to lower our vpip from by far the most profitable position on the table. 

When we limp the bb still has to risk 10bb to shove, only now the prize is a 2.5bb pot. Much less attractive.

Induce more mistakes

People play poorly v limps. In particular the SB will complete too wide. When we minr he gets to fold a lot. And he is correct to do so. He still gets to play the top of his range, only with us minr a wide range that part of his range gains a lot of EV. 

Preserve positional advantage

The advantage of being IP decreases with shorter eff stacks. In particular shrinking stack to pot ratios (SPR) hurts the IP player. You can't 3 barrel as effectively, can't leverage stacks or deny opponents as much equity share. The SPR of a limped pot @ 11bb eff is around the same as in a minr pot @ 22bb eff. We can 3 barrel, over-bet, use our stack etc etc. Villains can be forced to fold weak flopped pairs by the river etc etc.

@ 11bb eff a minr pot is roughly the same SPR as a limped pot @ 5.5bb. Villain if he doesn't 3bet shove can still flat, take his great odds pre knowing that he can often showdown any flopped pair and play 2 streets instead of 3 OOP.

Playing v capped ranges is boss. Our range is playable and we have position and a decent SPR.

I don't know enough about mtt population tendencies to be sure, but the combination of the above factors would lead me to believe that limping should form part of a solid button strat here.

It also reduces variance which can be of benefit when the ev's of actions are close

There are other factors to consider. If there are asymmetric stacks, or one player in the blinds is a better player than the other / having reads will change things drastically depending on which blind the shorter stack / reg / reads are in.

StayOrGo

Thanks for all the feedback, much appreciated.

For me, limping is not an option at this stage of a tournament, although I do appreciate the merits of this, that have been explained.

So to me it's a simple question:
 
Do I min raise or jam?

I think 10BB's or less is a definite jam, however with 11.5 BB's, I'm not sure. Certainly I feel 14BB should be a min raise. So perhaps 12 BB's is the number, making my play possibly "OK", but very marginal.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Cheers,

Graham

F_Ivanovic

Why do you feel that limping is not an option? Obviously if it is something you have not been doing then suddenly trying to incorporate a limping range isn't going to be easy but can be something to incorporate in future.

I don't think jamming will be a mistake anyway but it's jut a qn of whether m-r/fold or limping is more profitable. It's not really a hand I would like to have to m-r fold given that against a pretty wide shoving range we can have 44% equity and thus folding to shove can potentially be bad. Nor is it a hand we want to induce with and thus with any indidcation that either villains may shove wide I dislike m-r/folding. 

If you have no limping range then it's probably preferably to just jam but I do think limping this hand is likely going to show more of a profit.

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: Todays UKOPS M/E Final Table 3 left, was I right to shove?:

Why do you feel that limping is not an option? Obviously if it is something you have not been doing then suddenly trying to incorporate a limping range isn't going to be easy but can be something to incorporate in future. I don't think jamming will be a mistake anyway but it's jut a qn of whether m-r/fold or limping is more profitable. It's not really a hand I would like to have to m-r fold given that against a pretty wide shoving range we can have 44% equity and thus folding to shove can potentially be bad. Nor is it a hand we want to induce with and thus with any indidcation that either villains may shove wide I dislike m-r/folding.  If you have no limping range then it's probably preferably to just jam but I do think limping this hand is likely going to show more of a profit.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Hi Wes, good to see you out in Punta Cana mate.

Thanks for the feedback, I suppose limping is just not me. The thought of it even, makes me feel quite unwell. :=)

However I'm not saying I'm right, just for me and "my style" it's not an option. We could discuss in detail the merits for and against, but I feel we would reach an impasse.

There are some great players that limp and call raises, however it doesn't work for me (I feel I'm not good enough post flop).

Because my post flop play is lacking, I try, where possible, to take it down pre flop or at least go into the flop as the pre flop aggressor. I feel this gives me a starting point of their range and hopefully takes a bit of the "guess work" out of post flop play.

I rarely play cash, but starting to play a bit more, solely to improve my flop/turn/river play. So who knows, if I get better at that, I may turn into a limping/calling station after all! But it would probably need a transplant of some kind. :=)

All the best in your games.

Cheers,

Graham

GELDY

seeing an increasing amount of limping live with big hands when the spr shrinks

Doooobs

Jamming is correct mathematically and would be correct with more big blinds than this.  Push/fold charts for situations like this exist on the internet.

Limp calling would likely be an ICM disaster, given this hand is near the bottom of your shove range, so I'd be wary of doing it.

TeddyBloat

If by push fold charts you mean the Nash solutions for 3 handed push fold games then I'd strongly suggest that using those charts is disasterously bad for you.

They solve for situations where push or fold are the only options at a players disposal. Calling the Nash range at most depths for example would be spectacularly awful v most opponents. Shoving the Nash range would also be leaving value on the table.

Blindly following them is burning £££ when you have other options.

Nash push fold stinks as a strategy in most situations.

Not sure what you mean by mathematically correct. I assume you mean + ev. That just means it is better than open folding. 

We shouldn't settle on an option simply because we know it is better than open folding. Being better than open folding isn't a particularly high standard to aspire to with KTo on the btn.

We should look for the line that maximises our ev.

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: Todays UKOPS M/E Final Table 3 left, was I right to shove?:

Why do you feel that limping is not an option? Obviously if it is something you have not been doing then suddenly trying to incorporate a limping range isn't going to be easy but can be something to incorporate in future. I don't think jamming will be a mistake anyway but it's jut a qn of whether m-r/fold or limping is more profitable. It's not really a hand I would like to have to m-r fold given that against a pretty wide shoving range we can have 44% equity and thus folding to shove can potentially be bad. Nor is it a hand we want to induce with and thus with any indidcation that either villains may shove wide I dislike m-r/folding.  If you have no limping range then it's probably preferably to just jam but I do think limping this hand is likely going to show more of a profit.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

OK Wes and all, I have officially done it.
 
I've had a brain transplant, took your advice and limped in the small blind when 3 handed on the final table of the £55 speed BH.

The reason for this was that the big blind called my raises more often than folding or re-raising.

So what happened?

The guy ran down the time bank and checked, I think he was recovering from my limp or suspicious of it.

I had 68s. As it turned out the flop was AK2 and I c bet and took it down, so OK result.

May try it again, cautiously and situation specific, I think though.

Thanks for all the feedback and for teaching me how to limp. :=)

Good luck at the tables,

Cheers,

Graham

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: Todays UKOPS M/E Final Table 3 left, was I right to shove?:

In Response to Re: Todays UKOPS M/E Final Table 3 left, was I right to shove? : OK Wes and all, I have officially done it.   I've had a brain transplant, took your advice and limped in the small blind when 3 handed on the final table of the £55 speed BH. The reason for this was that the big blind called my raises more often than folding or re-raising. So what happened? The guy ran down the time bank and checked, I think he was recovering from my limp or suspicious of it. I had 68s . As it turned out the flop was AK2 and I c bet and took it down, so OK result. May try it again, cautiously and situation specific, I think though. Thanks for all the feedback and for teaching me how to limp. :=) Good luck at the tables, Cheers, Graham
Posted by StayOrGo

I think alot of people dont like to limp because its seen as a "fishy" thing to do. I have however seen alot of the very best players in the world use a limping strategy from the button when stacks are shorter because of what Teddy said. I dont think its a matter of style, more that it is the most +ev way to play the hand. I even saw pleno saying he would love to coach someone to use a limping strategy on the WSOP FT (for all positions presumably), because alot of the finalists get coaching from "preflop Warrior" types and wouldn't know how to handle it. OFC, he would coach them to balance their limping range with limp/ folds, limp/ calls and limp/ raises, something that most people that limp dont do, and is the main reason its so easy to play against.

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: Todays UKOPS M/E Final Table 3 left, was I right to shove?:

In Response to Re: Todays UKOPS M/E Final Table 3 left, was I right to shove? : I think alot of people dont like to limp because its seen as a "fishy" thing to do. I have however seen alot of the very best players in the world use a limping strategy from the button when stacks are shorter because of what Teddy said. I dont think its a matter of style, more that it is the most +ev way to play the hand. I even saw pleno saying he would love to coach someone to use a limping strategy on the WSOP FT (for all positions presumably), because alot of the finalists get coaching from "preflop Warrior" types and wouldn't know how to handle it. OFC, he would coach them to balance their limping range with limp/ folds, limp/ calls and limp/ raises, something that most people that limp dont do, and is the main reason its so easy to play against.
Posted by chicknMelt

You make a good point, as always Andy.

It always confuses the **** out of me, especially when someone limp/raises, proving your point above.

So I see how a balanced limping range could really put a spanner in the works for us pre flop guys. :=)

Scary stuff!

chicknMelt

In Response to Re: Todays UKOPS M/E Final Table 3 left, was I right to shove?:

In Response to Re: Todays UKOPS M/E Final Table 3 left, was I right to shove? : You make a good point, as always Andy. It always confuses the **** out of me, especially when someone limp/raises, proving your point above. So I see how a balanced limping range could really put a spanner in the works for us pre flop guys. :=) Scary stuff!
Posted by StayOrGo

It took me ages after someone first told me that limping the button was a legitimately good strategy in some situations before I started to do it, and im sure I still miss a tonne of spots where I should be limping. I do know though that whenever Teddy speaks, you should probably listen!

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: Todays UKOPS M/E Final Table 3 left, was I right to shove?:

I wouldn't (and dont) have a readless minraising range from the button @11bb eff. 3 handed. We can play wider ranges, induce more mistakes and preserve positional advantage. Wider ranges When we minr we create a pot of 3.5bb.  @ 25bb eff the BB has to risk 24bb to "win" that pot when 3bet shoving as a bluff. @ 11bb eff the reward of 3.5bb is still the same but he now only has to risk 10bb to win it. 3 bet shoving therefore becomes much more attractive. This will obviously hurt us and without a limping range we will be forced to lower our vpip from by far the most profitable position on the table.  When we limp the bb still has to risk 10bb to shove, only now the prize is a 2.5bb pot. Much less attractive. Induce more mistakes People play poorly v limps. In particular the SB will complete too wide. When we minr he gets to fold a lot. And he is correct to do so. He still gets to play the top of his range, only with us minr a wide range that part of his range gains a lot of EV.  Preserve positional advantage The advantage of being IP decreases with shorter eff stacks. In particular shrinking stack to pot ratios (SPR) hurts the IP player. You can't 3 barrel as effectively, can't leverage stacks or deny opponents as much equity share. The SPR of a limped pot @ 11bb eff is around the same as in a minr pot @ 22bb eff. We can 3 barrel, over-bet, use our stack etc etc. Villains can be forced to fold weak flopped pairs by the river etc etc. @ 11bb eff a minr pot is roughly the same SPR as a limped pot @ 5.5bb. Villain if he doesn't 3bet shove can still flat, take his great odds pre knowing that he can often showdown any flopped pair and play 2 streets instead of 3 OOP. Playing v capped ranges is boss. Our range is playable and we have position and a decent SPR. I don't know enough about mtt population tendencies to be sure, but the combination of the above factors would lead me to believe that limping should form part of a solid button strat here. It also reduces variance which can be of benefit when the ev's of actions are close There are other factors to consider. If there are asymmetric stacks, or one player in the blinds is a better player than the other / having reads will change things drastically depending on which blind the shorter stack / reg / reads are in.
Posted by TeddyBloat

Thanks for this Teddy, very interesting reading. Initially my mind set was only looking for a black or white, yes/no response, so your lengthy reply took me back a little.

However, prompted by ChicknMelt's post to re-read it in detail, it has woken me up to the merits of limping as a viable option in more cases than I previously gave credit to. Not something I thought I'd hear myself say :=)

So thank you for your well articulated response and for pointing me towards a deeper way of looking at the scenario.

All the best!

Graham

bearlyther

I understand the merits of a limping strategy and i do it myself i would even limp from the cutoff on occasions if i thought the spot was right with stack sizes behind me.  It would be a balanced limping strategy with premiums, medium strength hands and even some trash such as 84 suited or something if i thought the stacks were right for it and i didnt want to get shoved on but could play the hand profitably and bet 1 big blind on the flop on most occasions and win.

However i think jamming outweighs the merits of limping in this spot from 10 big blinds.  I would like the limp a lot more if we had 15 big blinds.  When we limp here were letting the blinds reliase their equity with any 2 cards for free which is pretty bad when we had a +ev shove.  I think the difference of 5 big blinds more means a lot here.