Taking down a final table

ALTiltYou

 in the last (estimate) 20 tournaments I've final tabled around 5-6 not a sharkscope

Subscriber so if somebody can check proper numbers for me that will be great. Anyway I've only came first and a runner up once, and before those I'm not taking down enough final tables. What's the best strategy on a final table, I never find myself

With a big stack. I'm good at laddering up but now I'm getting dissapointed when I finish 3rd or 2nd. Also have this problem live I find myself short and having to find spots to double up and also try laddering. I'm just wondering if any regs or anyone's input can give me Any advice how to be playing a final table to be in with the best chance of winning on not just laddrring to 3rd. Thanks! 

CraigSG1

There is no secret formula for winning a FT. Just good choices. 

The biggest piece of advice I can give you is when you are down to 12, open the other table and watch how the others are playing. Whose aggressive, whose loose, whose passive etc and then when you get to the FT it will help you pick your spots better. 

As for the rest, it's just a case of playing as best you can and just think about the best way to make chips. 

A few pointers. Pay attention to stack sizes, be careful not to raise small stacks with weak hands as your going to have to call more shoves. Pick on mid stacks, they have harder decisions as they don't want to bust before small stacks. Don't be afraid to go out if you think your making the right decision. 

Good luck. 

Tikay10

In Response to Taking down a final table:

 in the last (estimate) 20 tournaments I've final tabled around 5-6 not a sharkscope Subscriber so if somebody can check proper numbers for me that will be great. Anyway I've only came first and a runner up once, and before those I'm not taking down enough final tables. What's the best strategy on a final table, I never find myself With a big stack. I'm good at laddering up but now I'm getting dissapointed when I finish 3rd or 2nd. Also have this problem live I find myself short and having to find spots to double up and also try laddering. I'm just wondering if any regs or anyone's input can give me Any advice how to be playing a final table to be in with the best chance of winning on not just laddrring to 3rd. Thanks! 
Posted by ALTiltYou

That's about right, all in the last week. Looked at from another angle, on 5 of the last 6 days you have played, you have made a Final table.

Not suggesting you don't deserve that wonderful run, as you do very well over a much larger sample size, but of course that ratio of final tables to games played is not sustainable.
 
It's just wonderful how our results ebb & flow, & it's lovely when we are on the right side of variance, but when we run up a variance overdraft, it pretty soon gets called in. Same when we are the wrong side of it - it turns soon enough.

Hope your run continues a bit longer, & you take down a nice big MTT.    

aussie09

hi AL,

i looked again at your Hero Card.  your results are fine.  you are ranked as "hot" for FTs, Cash, Q1 and Points.  You are doing very well.  You are also in profit with a % ROI in all major tournaments you've played. 

all is well.

there are tweaks but let's wait and see.



 

ALTiltYou

Thanks guys for feedback and thanks tikay you big killjoy, I can at least pretend it's not variance can't I? :P

I mean making like 6 final tables in a short space and only taking one down when I felt there was only really 1 tough final table isn't good enough right? I feel I'm always the one chasing on a final table and laddering up I'm not the one with the chip lead bullying the table. I always have to come from behind. It's the same live and online. Isit because I've not been aggressive enough? Do you feel the best style of play on a final table is aggression if you want to win it and tight is for just laddering? Obviously depends on stacks!

Aussie I'm 2nd on the 'safe around the bubble' table on your site is this effected by playing tight also on a final table? Isit a bad thing I'm high on that list, should I be more aggressive on the bubble and FTs?

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Taking down a final table:

Thanks guys for feedback and thanks tikay you big killjoy, I can at least pretend it's not variance can't I? :P I mean making like 6 final tables in a short space and only taking one down when I felt there was only really 1 tough final table isn't good enough right? I feel I'm always the one chasing on a final table and laddering up I'm not the one with the chip lead bullying the table. I always have to come from behind. It's the same live and online. Isit because I've not been aggressive enough? Do you feel the best style of play on a final table is aggression if you want to win it and tight is for just laddering? Obviously depends on stacks! Aussie I'm 2nd on the 'safe around the bubble' table on your site is this effected by playing tight also on a final table? Isit a bad thing I'm high on that list, should I be more aggressive on the bubble and FTs?
Posted by ALTiltYou

Mr Killjoy here again.

I completely disagree with the emboldened part - the sample size is WAY too small to derive any meaningful conclusions.  

ALTiltYou

Ok Ok its probably me then, its all in my head, its all in my head!

ALTiltYou

Ok Ok its probably me then, its all in my head, its all in my head!

aussie09

In Response to Re: Taking down a final table:

Thanks guys for feedback and thanks tikay you big killjoy, I can at least pretend it's not variance can't I? :P I mean making like 6 final tables in a short space and only taking one down when I felt there was only really 1 tough final table isn't good enough right? I feel I'm always the one chasing on a final table and laddering up I'm not the one with the chip lead bullying the table. I always have to come from behind. It's the same live and online. Isit because I've not been aggressive enough? Do you feel the best style of play on a final table is aggression if you want to win it and tight is for just laddering? Obviously depends on stacks! Aussie I'm 2nd on the 'safe around the bubble' table on your site is this effected by playing tight also on a final table? Isit a bad thing I'm high on that list, should I be more aggressive on the bubble and FTs?
Posted by ALTiltYou

hi al,

yes, i noticed that.  third now though.

the tweak i would suggest is take a longer run up.  it doesn't really matter whether you use the fosbury flop, straddle or roll, if your run up is too short you wont win gold.

however, you have played just enough to be 8th in the league of highest percentage of cash.  very well done.  27% cash, ITM is very good.

you can see the best cashers on sky poker this year.  out of 40,041 players in 7,233 major tournaments, 4,498 have played a minimum of 50 games to feature.  here are the top 50...

www.pokersuperhero.com/cash.html

ALTiltYou

Sorry for being stupid, but what do you mean with the 'longer run up' quote? i dont quite understand. Thanks

ALTiltYou

Sorry for being stupid, but what do you mean with the 'longer run up' quote? i dont quite understand. Thanks

aussie09

your figures are good. 

we see that you are 8th best player on sky poker by your cash percentage.  we see that you feature 3rd on the table of 44,000 players for being safe when playing the bubble.  indications are there that you are a good player.  we see some other supporting numbers on your hero card. 

you express a desire to win more tournaments.  my tweak is to acknowledge that you are a good enough player and allow yourself to risk a little bit more earlier on in a tournament.  hence, "a longer run up."  start your run up a little earlier. 

put another way, if your strategy is skewed towards a final table place, or a cash position, you might achieve these but there might have done so in a more dominant position.

ALTiltYou

Thanks for this, yeah i get it now. So thankyou. Ill try include this in my strategy and see how it pans out.

I see i was just on a table with you, i couldn't type to say hi though as i was using my phone to play! 

GaryQQQ

You need to engage your killer instinct at final tables. Don't play to ladder, play to win. Nothing except first place should be considered satisfactory. Punish the players who've tightened up. Your mission is to win all the chips. You have be prepared to take the calculated risks and flips that might set you up for the win, preferably as the aggressor. Folding down to a tiny stack while waiting for a premium hand is a terrible strategy.

'He who dares wins' definitely applies in MTTs. Converting a few of those 3rd places to 1st places will make a huge difference to your bottom line. Yes, sometimes you'll bust out in 6th instead of 3rd looking like a fool, but if it brings more wins too it's well worth it. A win and a sixth pays a lot more than two third place finishes, check any tournament lobby and you'll see what I mean.

Keep your heads-up play sharp by searching out strategy advice and practising in STTs regularly. I love it at the end of an MTT when I find myself up against a player who clearly has no idea how to play heads-up. It happens often. Which of us would you rather be?

Good luck.

FeelGroggy

definitely agree with the idea of playing to win. If you look at the record of the best MTT players on sky you'll see that when they do reach a final table, they have a fairly decent record at taking it down, due to an aggressive strategy which usually leaves them with either a lot of chips for the end game or 0 chips. All the money is in the top spots. If you find yourself reaching the final table with few chips its less likely your going to take it down. Its something i need to work on myself, i dont win enough final tables for my liking. Finished 3rd more than any other position 

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Taking down a final table:

You need to engage your killer instinct at final tables. Don't play to ladder, play to win. Nothing except first place should be considered satisfactory. Punish the players who've tightened up. Your mission is to win all the chips. You have be prepared to take the calculated risks and flips that might set you up for the win, preferably as the aggressor. Folding down to a tiny stack while waiting for a premium hand is a terrible strategy. 'He who dares wins' definitely applies in MTTs. Converting a few of those 3rd places to 1st places will make a huge difference to your bottom line. Yes, sometimes you'll bust out in 6th instead of 3rd looking like a fool, but if it brings more wins too it's well worth it. A win and a sixth pays a lot more than two third place finishes, check any tournament lobby and you'll see what I mean. Keep your heads-up play sharp by searching out strategy advice and practising in STTs regularly. I love it at the end of an MTT when I find myself up against a player who clearly has no idea how to play heads-up. It happens often. Which of us would you rather be? Good luck.
Posted by GaryQQQ

Maxally?

GELDY

In Response to Re: Taking down a final table:

Thanks guys for feedback and thanks tikay you big killjoy, I can at least pretend it's not variance can't I? :P I mean making like 6 final tables in a short space and only taking one down when I felt there was only really 1 tough final table isn't good enough right? I feel I'm always the one chasing on a final table and laddering up I'm not the one with the chip lead bullying the table. I always have to come from behind. It's the same live and online. Isit because I've not been aggressive enough? Do you feel the best style of play on a final table is aggression if you want to win it and tight is for just laddering? Obviously depends on stacks! Aussie I'm 2nd on the 'safe around the bubble' table on your site is this effected by playing tight also on a final table? Isit a bad thing I'm high on that list, should I be more aggressive on the bubble and FTs?
Posted by ALTiltYou

wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (just to please teeks and p*ss him off at the same time.

6 FTs

playing 6 handed

suggests you get each position once (if played over a sample size of 6*lots)

but only if each position is equally easy to win!

but winning is much harder to do

so out of 6 you should expect about 0

and once you´ve done 6*lots

then maybe a few.

your stats sound good though so i´m sure it´s only a matter of time.

Lambert180

Lots and lotsssss of variance in MTTs. That's why you gotta play loadssss of them to get it to even out. It happens to the best of us, everyone will have had it,and if they aint yet, it's a cert they will do.

I'm on a bit of a downswing atm. It's grim when you continually go deep but all the money is up top and you just can't get over the line. There may be little adjustments in your game to make, or you might be playing great but you still need a bit of luck at the end. 

Fwiw in November I FT'd 15 comps...

1 x win

5 x 3rd

3 x 4th

2 x 5th

4 x 6th

That's grim lol.

It can be a sign of playing too timid pre FT, folding too much to try and make the FT etc which means when u do reach the FT you got a lot of work to do to get back in it. I'm pretty happy with how I've been playing though and sometimes it's just variance.

Also, I know it doesnt feel it when you keep coming 4th - 6th etc but FTing 5-6 comps out of 20 is still pretty insane and requires a lot of positive variance in itself.

percival09

I do think this is a pretty interesting discussion, since it's to do with how players view variance and how perceptions of things, that are probably false, alter their mindset. For example, I see over and over again the same thing, "if I don't win a tournament, regardless of whether I finish 2nd or 44th, then I'm unsatisfied" - this just has to be flawed thinking and I think it's a result of the competitive nature of how we're brought up, and our society. I don't think this is a good thing since it encourages players to disregard, like lambo says, the positive variance that they must have had to reach that 2nd position, or the final table.

Regarding op, I think it's too black and white to say something like, "play more aggressive earlier on" or "take more shots on the FT" - the simple truth is, the better poker player you are, the more final tables you will win. It seems some people are suggesting taking -EV spots to give them either a bigger chipstack, and therefore more chance of taking the tournament down, or busting. In most cases, this isn't true and the best way you can increase your final table conversion rate is to study off the tables. You want to be in a position where you understand poker on a greater level to that of your opponents, so you make less mistakes vs them and therefore increase your ev. It isn't a quick fix, and it's not supposed to be - poker's a tough game. 

GELDY

Lambie:

Fwiw in November I FT'd 15 comps...

1 x win  1

0 x 2nd 2

5 x 3rd  2

3 x 4th  3

2 x 5th  3

4 x 6th  4

That's grim lol.

Hardly - almost bang in line i'd say, just unlucky as a couple of possible seconds were thirds compared to a plausible expected distribution as highlighted above