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HELP!

junglevip7junglevip7
edited December 2015 in The Poker Clinic
Guys, i dunno if it's me or what but im baffled currently as to what im doin and questionin whether i am wrong, e.g. hands like ace 3 off, king 5 off, jack 2, queen 6, out of position, you fold, time after time i see people goin mental and bettin like theres no tomorrow, regardless of what im holding i seem to be getting done, ive had e.g. aces slow played them then flush hits and i have to pack! I have done the 'bingo' play and ive had aa v kk k hits, kk v qq queen hits! Ive went to go to value town and some crazy hand like 9 3 hits, im beyond the stage of bemoaning 'bad beats' and actually wondering if i sit here critiquing what i feel is bad play, or bad players, it's something im doing wrong? Even when im hitting my hands e.g ace jack flop 10 q k rainbow, im getting absolute plums, whether i check to induce raise, i donk bet, i overbet, nothin seems to be working! I vary what games i play, because i feel different tournaments invoke differing playing styles, ive done a tour of stars, pkr, partypoker, 888 and it's much the same story so i really am baffled as to what to do? I love playing poker, but it's like am defenceless to the inevitable suck out, or running into overpairs etc. Im no one for lacking a voice or opinion, but i have absolutely no explanation as to the solution, now iv listed all sites av played recently so i aint implying this is a 'personal witch hunt' i just feel so disheartened by the sequence of events and how they're unfolding. I welcome any advice that may help.
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Comments

  • FeelGroggyFeelGroggy
    edited December 2015
    Take note of the players who are playing these weak hands so aggressively and get involved with them when your holding a decent hand. Seems like your struggling to come to terms with being outdrawn - something extremely common in poker. In the past week I've lost count on how many times i've ran flushes into better ones, but its part of the game and if i'm making the right way im happy. I think in general slowplaying with hands like aces isn't the best strategy as you let opponents have chance to outdraw you cheaply. A lot of the time when we lose a hand or get knocked out a tournament we have a good hand its just our opponent has a better one. Its extremely common and not worth worrying about. If you try and make up for being outdrawn by betting too much on your good hands or playing passively you'll find yourself losing more often. If your unsure on what to do in certain hands post them on the poker clinic and people will give you constructive criticism. gl at the tables
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  • junglevip7junglevip7
    edited December 2015
    In Response to Re: HELP!:
    Take note of the players who are playing these weak hands so aggressively and get involved with them when your holding a decent hand. Seems like your struggling to come to terms with being outdrawn - something extremely common in poker. In the past week I've lost count on how many times i've ran flushes into better ones, but its part of the game and if i'm making the right way im happy. I think in general slowplaying with hands like aces isn't the best strategy as you let opponents have chance to outdraw you cheaply. A lot of the time when we lose a hand or get knocked out a tournament we have a good hand its just our opponent has a better one. Its extremely common and not worth worrying about. If you try and make up for being outdrawn by betting too much on your good hands or playing passively you'll find yourself losing more often. If your unsure on what to do in certain hands post them on the poker clinic and people will give you constructive criticism. gl at the tables
    Posted by FeelGroggy
    I quite often write notes on my opposition, so i generally have a pretty good idea of the playing styles i come up against, i can accept losing hands like aa it happens, im not 1 of these players who thinks just because i start strong it will end strong, but relating to your point about doing the right thing, i feel like the majority of the time i am aswell. I know table structure and dynamics determines how we can play our hands to an extent, it just seems like no matter what i do, im on the end of a puppet string. Iv started playing micro just to ride it out, the irritation is if i was self inflicting my beats, i could provide myself an answer, by no means am I saying i haven't tilted coz i got rivered and called knowing i am beat, but recently iv kept a lid on my emotions and acted sensibly. I don't play said hands in a one dimensional way i can alternate given who im against, i wrote down 11 hands i came up short against last Wednesday, it was just unbelievable, the only consolation iv took from this challenging time is i have made some great disciplined lay downs. Ace king pre if there has been activity iv threw em, qq iv been shoved on n folded, guy turned aa, i had to throw 55 on a board j 5 4, turn j river 4. 3 players in hand me, 2others, after the river it kicked off, so i done one, other 2 all in jj 44, only lost 225 (partypoker) so i got satisfaction from those. Regarding people raising my bb, im trying to improve my game there, and not take offence to it so much, i feel i can improve there, i have been playing omaha more recently and im enjoying that but sky isnt very varied there. I have managed to regain a positive outlook and mindset in the past hour or so, reinforcing i will win more than not in the long run, until i feel more assured as to what to do i think im just gonna dip it low and rejuvenate the buzz i used to get. Cheers for you taking time to respond to this. Gl in your endeavours.
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  • BigRonnieCBigRonnieC
    edited December 2015
    In Response to Re: HELP!:
    In Response to Re: HELP! : I quite often write notes on my opposition, so i generally have a pretty good idea of the playing styles i come up against, i can accept losing hands like aa it happens, im not 1 of these players who thinks just because i start strong it will end strong, but relating to your point about doing the right thing, i feel like the majority of the time i am aswell. I know table structure and dynamics determines how we can play our hands to an extent, it just seems like no matter what i do, im on the end of a puppet string. Iv started playing micro just to ride it out, the irritation is if i was self inflicting my beats, i could provide myself an answer, by no means am I saying i haven't tilted coz i got rivered and called knowing i am beat, but recently iv kept a lid on my emotions and acted sensibly. I don't play said hands in a one dimensional way i can alternate given who im against, i wrote down 11 hands i came up short against last Wednesday, it was just unbelievable, the only consolation iv took from this challenging time is i have made some great disciplined lay downs. Ace king pre if there has been activity iv threw em, qq iv been shoved on n folded, guy turned aa, i had to throw 55 on a board j 5 4, turn j river 4. 3 players in hand me, 2others, after the river it kicked off, so i done one, other 2 all in jj 44, only lost 225 (partypoker) so i got satisfaction from those. Regarding people raising my bb, im trying to improve my game there, and not take offence to it so much, i feel i can improve there, i have been playing omaha more recently and im enjoying that but sky isnt very varied there. I have managed to regain a positive outlook and mindset in the past hour or so, reinforcing i will win more than not in the long run, until i feel more assured as to what to do i think im just gonna dip it low and rejuvenate the buzz i used to get. Cheers for you taking time to respond to this. Gl in your endeavours.
    Posted by junglevip7

    We all get THAT feeling - the world is against me, how the hell can this keep happening to ME? 

    I just checked your sharkscope - you're obviously a decent player but I would not be surprised if you're still on tilt from whatever it is caused you to lose over €150 in one day on 14th November. 

    If you play DYMs or regular SNGs it makes a huge difference in style of play too. You seem to play a lot of MTTs so expect random pushes. When it comes to MTTs you need to learn how important stack size is for EVERY decision. If you are the chip bully or short stack the same hand gets viewed differently. 
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  • junglevip7junglevip7
    edited December 2015
    In Response to Re: HELP!:
    In Response to Re: HELP! : We all get THAT feeling - the world is against me, how the hell can this keep happening to ME?  I just checked your sharkscope - you're obviously a decent player but I would not be surprised if you're still on tilt from whatever it is caused you to lose over €150 in one day on 14th November.  If you play DYMs or regular SNGs it makes a huge difference in style of play too. You seem to play a lot of MTTs so expect random pushes. When it comes to MTTs you need to learn how important stack size is for EVERY decision. If you are the chip bully or short stack the same hand gets viewed differently. 
    Posted by BigRonnieC
    SharkScope is inaccurate mate, the reason it comes up as such, is it doesn't recognise when a player satellites into a tournie, now i believe that would have been a ukop event (i freerolled into 3), so the profit gain should be about 400 better off. Since july. The world is not against me but..... it just stuns me what can unfold, i actually just busted in a dym 4 handed i had 5.5k and through my own stupidity and stubbornness i donated, not tilt zone just bein daft, i will counter that by defending what is unfolding to me at times recently., sometimes its a hand where the other player has 'the right' to call or what, and they land, fair enough. Other times its i dunno, ah e.g. stars yesterday was deep in a tournie 15k guaranteed or summat, my button ace queen diamonds, i pop it x3 i think maybe x2.5, so bb calls flop queen spades, jack and 2 of diamonds, so he donk leads i shove him and he called with 7 4 off suit no diamond, went 7 turn (hearts), 4 (clubs) and crippled me.i replayed the hand over n over to analyse whether i missed something justifying the call, obviously i never and still haven't answered my query. In reference to mtts yeah i do participate quite regularly, and i have an ambition to fully understand how to play varying tournies. Iv tried small ball, gung ho, the quiet approach, the tight approach, loose approach, its just brick walls the now, i swear i had earlier in sng 7 straight hands jack ace, 10s, king queen, ace queen, 7s, jack ace, ace king, and i never won a pot! But i didn't bust either so i maintained composure, i do agree with the importance of stacks and how to get the most from what I have, something admittedly i at times need to improve. A lot of MY mistakes is down to my mentality, i have to take medication to scre w  the nut lol and if iv no had it, im lethal and do daft stuff although once it's kicked in i can maintain concentration a lot better, impulsiveness basically. But that's caused me a lot more in life than a couple of poker hands. Iv been in darker places than this, its just advice as to what opinions are out there, if i'm being honest i will say that i don't think I'm paying enough attention to whats goin on, e.g. multi tabling, watching the tele as well as playing, i recognise that is erratic at times, its hard to describe i aint trying to bemoan every bad beat, but constantly it has been testing for me recently, in the whole im over 5 bar up since august throughout the online poker world,  that's no bad i suppose. I just realised there iv wrote a book here so best wrap it, appreciate your help buddy,cheers
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  • junglevip7junglevip7
    edited December 2015
    In Response to Re: HELP!:
    Take note of the players who are playing these weak hands so aggressively and get involved with them when your holding a decent hand. Seems like your struggling to come to terms with being outdrawn - something extremely common in poker. In the past week I've lost count on how many times i've ran flushes into better ones, but its part of the game and if i'm making the right way im happy. I think in general slowplaying with hands like aces isn't the best strategy as you let opponents have chance to outdraw you cheaply. A lot of the time when we lose a hand or get knocked out a tournament we have a good hand its just our opponent has a better one. Its extremely common and not worth worrying about. If you try and make up for being outdrawn by betting too much on your good hands or playing passively you'll find yourself losing more often. If your unsure on what to do in certain hands post them on the poker clinic and people will give you constructive criticism. gl at the tables
    Posted by FeelGroggy
    How do u post hands on this?
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  • junglevip7junglevip7
    edited December 2015

    Hand History #976134741 (00:04 08/12/2015)

    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    junglevip7Small blind 1500.001500.0020160.00
    thislteduBig blind 3000.004500.0091409.00
     Your hole cards
    • 3
    • 3
    		   
    Andy_HornsFold    
    craigcu12Raise 6000.0010500.00113477.25
    junglevip7All-in 20160.0030660.000.00
    thislteduFold    
    craigcu12Call 15660.0046320.0097817.25
    junglevip7Show
    • 3
    • 3
    		   
    craigcu12Show
    • 9
    • 7
    		   
    Flop
      
    • J
    • 3
    • Q
    		   
    Turn
      
    • 10
    		   
    River
      
    • 8
    		   
    craigcu12WinStraight to the Queen46320.00 144137.25
    thats how i just busted out dtd in 4th, after grinding and protecting a pretty short stack, i managed to squeeze into final table, happy with the way i played, infact very happy, right moves at right times, good lay downs, then just when things were looking up.... check that out, it's just sickening the way that happened. It just numbs my mind, thats how i bust in tournaments, i bluffed a geezer 4 hands previous, bad move, had i busted then i wouldn't bother but this is outrageous. It makes me wonder.
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  • junglevip7junglevip7
    edited December 2015

    Hand History #975967762 (19:26 07/12/2015)

    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    TopMan12Small blind 400.00400.003430.00
    GREGSTERBig blind 800.001200.005100.00
     Your hole cards
    • 3
    • 3
    		   
    junglevip7Call 800.002000.00762.50
    terrytwomoreFold    
    GreenKing1Fold    
    tam1956Fold    
    TopMan12Fold    
    GREGSTERCheck    
    Flop
      
    • 8
    • A
    • 9
    		   
    GREGSTERBet 800.002800.004300.00
    junglevip7All-in 762.503562.500.00
    GREGSTERUnmatched bet 37.503525.004337.50
    GREGSTERShow
    • 6
    • 10
    		   
    junglevip7Show
    • 3
    • 3
    		   
    Turn
      
    • 5
    		   
    River
      
    • 7
    		   
    GREGSTERWinStraight to the 103525.00 7862.50
    another suck out
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  • JPMagicJPMagic
    edited December 2015
    The sites you mention are three of the softest/fishiest sites that you can imagine. Party and Sky in particular.Unfortunately things happen it's poker but its generally going to happen more on these sites against these players. The guys just cant fold,and stay in pots they shouldnt be in due to not understanding the basics.It is what it is though pal,the long term they pay the rent or should.....but we want to be playing them,you know that though.It is still a relatively small sample,keep doing things correctly and things will turn.Law of maths dicates that it will.

    The first hand posted,shoving 33 isn't great.We are flipping against anything as noone is calling you with 22. Yes you only have 7bb but once opened you have zero fold equity.....as it turned out you were called by the 97 and yes the run out isn't great but the play initially not looking at the result is wrong.


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  • BigRonnieCBigRonnieC
    edited December 2015
    No idea how that guy called you with 97 suited (guessing late stage MTT with those stacks) but he sucked out. It happens, you should/have done it (sucked out other people).

    Maybe take a few days off - if you enter something thinking you need revenge or to win you will jump on a pair of Kings or Aces on the flop when it is obvious a set might be lurking. Wait til you don't care or do a few lower stakes games to get your confidence back.


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  • MattBatesMattBates
    edited December 2015
    In Response to Re: HELP!:
    No idea how that guy called you with 97 suited (guessing late stage MTT with those stacks) but he sucked out. It happens, you should/have done it (sucked out other people). Maybe take a few days off - if you enter something thinking you need revenge or to win you will jump on a pair of Kings or Aces on the flop when it is obvious a set might be lurking. Wait til you don't care or do a few lower stakes games to get your confidence back.
    Posted by BigRonnieC
    He is priced in, we have shoved with hardly any fold equity. In spots like this we need to look at how we got that low not at the exit hand. 
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  • weecheez1weecheez1
    edited December 2015
    Still learning and I know I might get shot down in flames but middling cards 68 79 and such are they really that far behind when people are raising with ak aq small pairs  my thinking is large pairs would be played differently and you would still have two live cards and the chance of running out 
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  • junglevip7junglevip7
    edited December 2015
    Im not so bothered about the call, he had over 100k, it's an easy shove 4 handed with a pair and 3 big blinds behind his raise (which he was raising quite often) so i knew i was ahead regardless, albeit having to dodge bullets, but the sequence of how it transpired is unreal. Regarding the sites from what ive saw its stars and those russians that do my head in, i aint the type to gun for revenge so i don't need to worry there, the only thing i took from last night was i played pretty much to the best of my ability, if truth have it i probably shouldn't have sneaked into 4th, but i made moves at right times, i myself had 9 10 suited last night and hit 9 on flop 10 on turn and someone had aces so i afree to an extent about the middle suited connectors. Today is a different day and i have positivity and in a whole i made profits over last 3 nights so i am obviously no doin much wrong. Your feedback has been helpful, particularly the initial ones, it made me think a little bit more about my plays.
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  • junglevip7junglevip7
    edited December 2015
    In Response to Re: HELP!:
    The sites you mention are three of the softest/fishiest sites that you can imagine. Party and Sky in particular.Unfortunately things happen it's poker but its generally going to happen more on these sites against these players. The guys just cant fold,and stay in pots they shouldnt be in due to not understanding the basics.It is what it is though pal,the long term they pay the rent or should.....but we want to be playing them,you know that though.It is still a relatively small sample,keep doing things correctly and things will turn.Law of maths dicates that it will. The first hand posted,shoving 33 isn't great.We are flipping against anything as noone is calling you with 22. Yes you only have 7bb but once opened you have zero fold equity.....as it turned out you were called by the 97 and yes the run out isn't great but the play initially not looking at the result is wrong.
    Posted by JPMagic
    Regarding party mate last week i had 55, so me and 2 others to the flop (i called a small raise) flop jack 5 4, (boom)..... so again i called a fairly small bet, not wanting to scare anyone, turn another jack, im still not worried, again small bets called, river 4, so i have a boat i think i should be fine, until the 2 geezers infront start going crazy bet raise i called 1st raise then the 1st player shoves, (alarm bells), 2nd calls, instant fold by me, player 1 has pocket 4s and player 2 has pocket jacks, and i only lost 20% of my stack, i was buzzing about that. That's the craziest hand i have been involved in.
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  • MattBatesMattBates
    edited December 2015
    In Response to Re: HELP!:
    Im not so bothered about the call, he had over 100k, it's an easy shove 4 handed with a pair and 3 big blinds behind his raise (which he was raising quite often) so i knew i was ahead regardless, albeit having to dodge bullets, but the sequence of how it transpired is unreal. Regarding the sites from what ive saw its stars and those russians that do my head in, i aint the type to gun for revenge so i don't need to worry there, the only thing i took from last night was i played pretty much to the best of my ability, if truth have it i probably shouldn't have sneaked into 4th, but i made moves at right times, i myself had 9 10 suited last night and hit 9 on flop 10 on turn and someone had aces so i afree to an extent about the middle suited connectors. Today is a different day and i have positivity and in a whole i made profits over last 3 nights so i am obviously no doin much wrong. Your feedback has been helpful, particularly the initial ones, it made me think a little bit more about my plays.
    Posted by junglevip7
    You do realise 97ss is 51% to win the hand? You don't have fold equity and your going to be behind/flipping.
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  • junglevip7junglevip7
    edited December 2015
    In Response to Re: HELP!:
    In Response to Re: HELP! : You do realise 97ss is 51% to win the hand? You don't have fold equity and your going to be behind/flipping.
    Posted by MattBates
    Im never folding any pair short 4 handed in small blind, regardless its an easy shove, if i call i have 3xbb behind, if i fold im bleeding chips with a pair to an aggressive player. I dont think theres any question as to what i done wrong or he for that, but its sick i hit a set and he has runner runner runner. Outrageous. Whats the odds after flop? Not be 51% then, but as with online poker its a suck out. 
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  • JPMagicJPMagic
    edited December 2015
    In Response to Re: HELP!:
    In Response to Re: HELP! : He is priced in, we have shoved with hardly any fold equity. In spots like this we need to look at how we got that low not at the exit hand. 
    Posted by MattBates
    This 100%
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  • MattBatesMattBates
    edited December 2015
    In Response to Re: HELP!:
    In Response to Re: HELP! : Im never folding any pair short 4 handed in small blind, regardless its an easy shove, if i call i have 3xbb behind, if i fold im bleeding chips with a pair to an aggressive player. I dont think theres any question as to what i done wrong or he for that, but its sick i hit a set and he has runner runner runner. Outrageous. Whats the odds after flop? Not be 51% then, but as with online poker its a suck out. 
    Posted by junglevip7
    I will be honest I didnt look at the run out just the hands, once all in there is nothing we can do about it. Quite often I dont look at runouts once all in there isnt anything we can do about it and thats poker not online poker!
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  • GREGSTERGREGSTER
    edited December 2015
    In Response to Re: HELP!:
    Hand History #975967762 (19:26 07/12/2015) Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance TopMan12 Small blind   400.00 400.00 3430.00 GREGSTER Big blind   800.00 1200.00 5100.00   Your hole cards 3 3       junglevip7 Call   800.00 2000.00 762.50 terrytwomore Fold         GreenKing1 Fold         tam1956 Fold         TopMan12 Fold         GREGSTER Check         Flop     8 A 9       GREGSTER Bet   800.00 2800.00 4300.00 junglevip7 All-in   762.50 3562.50 0.00 GREGSTER Unmatched bet   37.50 3525.00 4337.50 GREGSTER Show 6 10       junglevip7 Show 3 3       Turn     5       River     7       GREGSTER Win Straight to the 10 3525.00   7862.50 another suck out
    Posted by junglevip7
    Hey JungleVIP - I remember this hand as I it was from the UKPC Freeroll and I just got moved straight into the BB from another table and by the time the table reloaded I didn't have time to put you all-in. Just a couple of comments:

    1.) Don't let yourself get down to 2 BB's - although as I had only just moved to the table you could of had an accident in the last hand or two.
    2.) When you are down to 2 BB's, just shove.

    I would of called you whatever cards I held, although in this example you would of actually won the blinds as my table didn't load quickly enough for me to call pre-flop.

    All the best

    Greg.
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