Jacks...

BlackFish3 · February 2010

Situation 1:

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
shark09	Small blind		£0.04	£0.04	£7.88
gorilla	Big blind		£0.08	£0.12	£8.35
	Your hole cards	J J
BlackFish3	Raise		£0.24	£0.36	£19.08
DOHHHHHHH	Fold
CardGenius	Fold
louis1984	Fold
shark09	Raise		£0.40	£0.76	£7.48
gorilla	Fold
BlackFish3	Call		£0.20	£0.96	£18.88
Flop
		2 5 2
shark09	Bet		£0.96	£1.92	£6.52
BlackFish3	Fold
shark09	Muck
shark09	Win		£1.88		£8.40

Ok so i flat preflop in position hoping to see what he would do and looking to set up, on the flop i think i played it way too tight and should of asked the question with a small reraise.

BlackFish3 · February 2010

Situation 2...

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
louis1984	Small blind		£0.04	£0.04	£13.48
shark09	Big blind		£0.08	£0.12	£8.24
	Your hole cards	J J
gorilla	Fold
BlackFish3	Raise		£0.24	£0.36	£18.52
DOHHHHHHH	Fold
louis1984	Raise		£0.48	£0.84	£13.00
shark09	Fold
BlackFish3	Raise		£1.60	£2.44	£16.92
louis1984	Fold
BlackFish3	Muck
BlackFish3	Win		£2.44		£19.36

pretty much identical to the first but chatting to doh convinced me to play it differently so i reraised back and took it down. Although doh thinks i should have flatted in position and asked the question on the flop.

so... how do you guys play in these sort of situations?

DOHHHHHHH · February 2010

Noooo, I said I preferred the 2nd play to the first.....

Its a good debate, and 2 gud examples to go at it......

Play one is fine, if ur gunna play down the streets,I dnt like flatting pre to fold on a 5 high board, u need to put some pressure on, or at least call the flop and allow him to keep coming to u! Play 2 is fine also.....

The only prob I had was folding the flop on a 5 high board. Thats ultra tight. Maybe ur right n he has aces?

How to play jacks huh?

To me as always, I play em aggressively and adapt insinctively!

DOHH

beaneh · February 2010

In Response to Jacks...:

Ok so i flat preflop in position hoping to see what he would do and looking to set up, on the flop i think i played it way too tight and should of asked the question with a small reraise.

When you get three bet by the small blind you want to compose a set of hands that he will take that action with, combining your read on the player, his position, bet sizing, any relevant history about people tilting/big hands that have just happened etc

If he is re-raising a conservative range of value hands : AK/QQ+ then with 100 big blinds effective in our stacks you have to decide whether you have the direct odds (pot odds) combined with the possibility of winning more money on favorable flops (your implied odds) to make the call of the 3 bet a worthwhile investment. With 100 bbs it's not normally ok to call a 3 bet to flop a set, you need to have some form of dynamic where your opponent has a wider range than just monsters so that there are more flops that you can continue on without having to hit a Jack.

When the flop comes and pairs the board with cards that are very low and unlikely to hit his 3 betting range then you are in a clear way ahead way behind spot. By that I mean if you are winning then he likely has 6 over card outs or 2 outs to a set with an underpair and if you're behind your crushed and drawing to 2 outs. When you get into a WA/WB spot you do not want to be the one raising because you allow your opponent to make very easy decisions because essentially he will either have a hand that is beating your and that he is going with or he doesn't have much and will just fold.

I would start by calling the flop and seeing how your opponent plays on the turn.

You can get the same information from a flop call and villain still betting a brick turn as you would if you raised his flop raise and he moved in. Except that when you raise the flop it costs you more and you don't have the chance of spiking a Jack on the turn.

In this specific example if your opponent is a decent-ish player (aware of position, taking the initiative etc) then he is going to have needed a pretty strong hand to re-raise an under the gun raise from the small blind, knowing that if you call him he will be oop on every street for the whole hand. Therefore the better the player he is the more likely he is to have a stronger set of hands to do this with. Similarly if you had opened one off the button and the button re-raised you then you could put him on a much wider range of hands because he would then be playing the hand in position AND he would be re-raising a much wider opening range (because obviously your CO opening range will be much much wider than your utg range).

The preflop raise in the first example is exceptionally small and so I would be calling this all the time (I hadn't seen the size when discussing a few paragraphs up). The size of the bet is indicative that your opponent may not fully understand what he is doing. What you have to determine is just how strong the range of hands he min 3 bets out of position with is. If you thought that he was a madman you could put the 4th bet in preflop with the idea to get all of your money in preflop, but again that needs a specific read or a mad type of player/dynamic between the two of you. 4 betting also helps if you are not confident playing your hands post flop, because obviously with JJ you are going to be playing Qxx Kxx and Axx flops a high percentage of the time and can be very easily making mistakes that cause you to get your money in quite alot behind!

So in the second example you raise the CO, the SB 3 bets and you 4 bet.

I think that this is a bad spot to be 4 betting without a good read because of how much money the two of you are effectively playing (about 175 bbs). Once you have 4 bet will you be folding to anothe re-raise or are you looking to get all of your money in?

The idea behind flatting the 3bet is not just to see a flop with no A/K on it and then as you put it 'ask a question'.

You should be calling because it's hard to get 13$ ai pf at an $0.08bb good and because you dont let your opponent overvalue hands or bluff off chips. I think calling the 3 bet is best.

When you 4 bet if he only continues with QQ+ then we have about 18% equity, however if we call the 3 bet and are up against a range of QQ+/ and AKo and AKs then we now have 36% equity, AND we are in position making our life of realising this equity alot easier.

From then on information on your opponent will help you decide how to play the hand. You need to be thinking about a myriad of different factors such as position, stack sizes, reads, recent history, does he fold anything im losing to, can he call with worse, absolute hand strength, perceived hand strength and you need to be thinking about the streets to come already. On the flop you should have a good idea of how you want the hand to go for you, and you should have a good idea of cards you do and don't want to see.

For example if your villain will bet the flop after re-raising and then give up betting unless he has hit TP + and just check calls with 2nd pair type hands flatting is a great idea.

Does that all make sense or is it gobblydygook?

ncm__ · February 2010

In Response to Re: Jacks...:

In Response to Jacks...:
Posted by beaneh

I think you are way off the mark here beaneh mate.

Everyone knows that jacks are the hardest hand to play in holdem! I think they are fine to open but if we get raised I think we can only call if looking to flop a J, if there isn't one on the flop its time to give up!

I used to loe alot of money with the fish hooks, so now I just don't play them any more. They are not as good a hand as you think and I would advise folding them almost always when raised, you will lose alot less!

pod1 · February 2010

how would you play them on a 10 high board ncm after the flop and then getting raised(flat calls to bb pre flop), surly you dont ditch them then.

beaneh · February 2010

In Response to Re: Jacks...:

how would you play them on a 10 high board ncm after the flop and then getting raised(flat calls to bb pre flop), surly you dont ditch them then.
Posted by pod1

He's winding you up fella.

Cowgomoo · February 2010

I just dont understand hand 1. I cant even comprehend what you are doing.

BlackFish3 · February 2010

In Response to Re: Jacks...:

I just dont understand hand 1. I cant even comprehend what you are doing.
Posted by Cowgomoo

not even fancy a guess? thanks for the input btw.
ok standard raise with JJ, i get reraised so i called set mining (3 betting is so so so rare at nl8). Didnt hit my set, his pot bet to me felt like he had the goods and i missed my set so i let it go cheaply. People at nl8 bluff by betting about 1/2 pot or shoving all in lol.
Hope this helps

beaneh · February 2010

In Response to Re: Jacks...:

In Response to Re: Jacks... : not even fancy a guess? thanks for the input btw. ok standard raise with JJ, i get reraised so i called set mining (3 betting is so so so rare at nl8). Didnt hit my set, his pot bet to me felt like he had the goods and i missed my set so i let it go cheaply. People at nl8 bluff by betting about 1/2 pot or shoving all in lol. Hope this helps
Posted by BlackFish3

My post too long?

BlackFish3 · February 2010

In Response to Re: Jacks...:

In Response to Re: Jacks... : My post too long?
Posted by beaneh

lol soz i keep meaning to reply to it but need some time!

beaneh · February 2010

In Response to Re: Jacks...:

In Response to Re: Jacks... : lol soz i keep meaning to reply to it but need some time!
Posted by BlackFish3

NP I just didn't type that much for people to only respond to the joke responses!

BlackFish3 · February 2010

In Response to Re: Jacks...:

In Response to Jacks...: When you get three bet by the small blind you want to compose a set of hands that he will take that action with, combining your read on the player, his position, bet sizing, any relevant history about people tilting/big hands that have just happened etc If he is re-raising a conservative range of value hands : AK/QQ+ then with 100 big blinds effective in our stacks you have to decide whether you have the direct odds (pot odds) combined with the possibility of winning more money on favorable flops (your implied odds) to make the call of the 3 bet a worthwhile investment. With 100 bbs it's not normally ok to call a 3 bet to flop a set, you need to have some form of dynamic where your opponent has a wider range than just monsters so that there are more flops that you can continue on without having to hit a Jack. When the flop comes and pairs the board with cards that are very low and unlikely to hit his 3 betting range then you are in a clear way ahead way behind spot. By that I mean if you are winning then he likely has 6 over card outs or 2 outs to a set with an underpair and if you're behind your crushed and drawing to 2 outs. When you get into a WA/WB spot you do not want to be the one raising because you allow your opponent to make very easy decisions because essentially he will either have a hand that is beating your and that he is going with or he doesn't have much and will just fold. I would start by calling the flop and seeing how your opponent plays on the turn. You can get the same information from a flop call and villain still betting a brick turn as you would if you raised his flop raise and he moved in. Except that when you raise the flop it costs you more and you don't have the chance of spiking a Jack on the turn. In this specific example if your opponent is a decent-ish player (aware of position, taking the initiative etc) then he is going to have needed a pretty strong hand to re-raise an under the gun raise from the small blind, knowing that if you call him he will be oop on every street for the whole hand. Therefore the better the player he is the more likely he is to have a stronger set of hands to do this with. Similarly if you had opened one off the button and the button re-raised you then you could put him on a much wider range of hands because he would then be playing the hand in position AND he would be re-raising a much wider opening range (because obviously your CO opening range will be much much wider than your utg range). The preflop raise in the first example is exceptionally small and so I would be calling this all the time (I hadn't seen the size when discussing a few paragraphs up). The size of the bet is indicative that your opponent may not fully understand what he is doing. What you have to determine is just how strong the range of hands he min 3 bets out of position with is. If you thought that he was a madman you could put the 4th bet in preflop with the idea to get all of your money in preflop, but again that needs a specific read or a mad type of player/dynamic between the two of you. 4 betting also helps if you are not confident playing your hands post flop, because obviously with JJ you are going to be playing Qxx Kxx and Axx flops a high percentage of the time and can be very easily making mistakes that cause you to get your money in quite alot behind! So in the second example you raise the CO, the SB 3 bets and you 4 bet. I think that this is a bad spot to be 4 betting without a good read because of how much money the two of you are effectively playing (about 175 bbs). Once you have 4 bet will you be folding to anothe re-raise or are you looking to get all of your money in? The idea behind flatting the 3bet is not just to see a flop with no A/K on it and then as you put it 'ask a question'. You should be calling because it's hard to get 13$ ai pf at an $0.08bb good and because you dont let your opponent overvalue hands or bluff off chips. I think calling the 3 bet is best. When you 4 bet if he only continues with QQ+ then we have about 18% equity, however if we call the 3 bet and are up against a range of QQ+/ and AKo and AKs then we now have 36% equity, AND we are in position making our life of realising this equity alot easier. From then on information on your opponent will help you decide how to play the hand. You need to be thinking about a myriad of different factors such as position, stack sizes, reads, recent history, does he fold anything im losing to, can he call with worse, absolute hand strength, perceived hand strength and you need to be thinking about the streets to come already. On the flop you should have a good idea of how you want the hand to go for you, and you should have a good idea of cards you do and don't want to see. For example if your villain will bet the flop after re-raising and then give up betting unless he has hit TP + and just check calls with 2nd pair type hands flatting is a great idea. Does that all make sense or is it gobblydygook?
Posted by beaneh

yea it all makes perfect sense to me dw... thanks for taking your time to make such a detailed post... tbh at the time i forgot i could just float i dont know why! I started this thread to learn how to play it a bit better in the same situation in the future, so thanks a lot it really helped

.

beaneh · February 2010

In Response to Re: Jacks...:

In Response to Re: Jacks... : yea it all makes perfect sense to me dw... thanks for taking your time to make such a detailed post... tbh at the time i forgot i could just float i dont know why! I started this thread to learn how to play it a bit better in the same situation in the future, so thanks a lot it really helped .
Posted by BlackFish3

No probs, I realised that I had only really covered preflop but getting that nailed down so you dont have any big leaks is obviously a good idea.

The thing is that the post flop play is going to be much more important for your bottom line because there the biggest mistakes are made. If you have 72o and get it in against 77 preflop then y ou are in the worst possible situation you can be in NLH, the 77 is a 94% favourite (where AA vs KK is 82%). However of course post flop you can be drawing dead from the flop onwards hence the possibility for costly mistakes. But that is also why the after flop decisions should be the more studied and thought through.

There is absolutely no correct forumla for playing any hand in any situation in poker, you need to take into account all the information at your disposal at the time and anything you have learnt in the past about your opponents to make each specific decision.

Jacks...

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