to HUD, or not to HUD

PuppetJack

Ok, I suppose the crux of my question, is to HUD, or not to HUD?

I understand that sky does not permit HUDs & in ways I do kind of agree.
it’s far better to have to pay attention, notice player proclivities & adapt your play as you would live in order to make you a better player, as opposed to some other sites whereby some of the more ‘dedicated to profits’ players, use them to list VPIP / PFR / 3B% stats et al, whilst playing - although that surely can’t hurt once your ROI once you get swift at processing & analysing the data.

I’m not what you’d call a winning player. I’m more in the lower end of the break-even camp.  My Sky chart on Sharkscope (prior to today’s reset) was clearly one of an MTT player with gradual slow declines, followed by abrupt jumps upwards. That said, I was only about 200 pounds down (after about 8 years play on this site) – with several wins over the £100 pound mark.
I personally consider that not too bad for a small stakes player (generally £10>).

Over the last few months however, I have made a concerted effort to try & improve my play. To not be in the mind-set of just blindly clicking buttons whilst watching TV or browsing the web (which I have done a LOT!), and to be more patient & focused, think more about my plays & other player’s holdings and quite obviously it has yielded great results!

My win rate in DYMs & SnG’s increased significantly & I was ramping up the deficit on my Sharkscope chart which was my year end goal, and it WAS going great…. until I won a UKPC free roll in December, which Sharkscope doesn’t track. So it didn’t attribute me the £100 prize, nor did it track the £240 entry into the UKPC final, - but it did track the £240 loss when I didn’t win! – so that’s basically bottomed out my sharkscope chart, which has ruined my goal & disheartened my continued efforts to get my chart to rise up from the red.

All this has led me to start looking at poker tracking software: mainly to keep an accurate personal record of my profit loss, but also as a way of analysing my play in-depth and I’ve been particularly impressed with the leak identifiers that they contain, as I am reasonably sure that I have some leaks (not going to mention them here) and having some statistical analysis of my play will probably yield massive dividends. – problem being of course that Sky does not tie in with either Pokertracker 4 or the sharkscope HUD (those are the two I’ve narrowed it to).

So I’m now at a crossroads here as to whether I use my relatively unused account on another site in order to focus on improving my game, whilst continuing to play on SKY from time to time.
– BUT I know what I’m like though, & when I first started on sky (because of the TV channel admittedly), - I gravitated from another site, to end up solely playing here and I just don’t know whether I will actually juggle multiple sites, as I can see myself falling into one or the other as my ‘regular’ one & by regular I mean 95%+
If I invest in improvement sources & plugins for the alternative site, I think that I might drift away from Sky, which would be a genuine shame after all these years.

As I stated, I have reset my Sharkscope chart for my Sky account, so “new year, clean slate”, but I also want to genuinely improve my game and I think that continuing my present dedication & focus whilst also utilising a HUD / Leak finder might be the way I go for me…, This is due to a multitude of factors, but one of which is the impression I’m given that nowadays SKY seems to want to cater more-so for the higher stake regs & those in the bigger tourneys, as opposed to the meagre “baby-stakes players”, like it used to be back in the day….

Irrespective of my views on the site above, my question is still around the use of HUD tools.

What are people’s views on these tools? Has anyone used one & seen improvements? Did you stay with Sky & play across multiple sites? Which poker tracking software did you use? (& why?)

I’m leaning towards Pokertracker4, however the S/S HUD looks pretty swish also (although the leak finder seems less in-depth than PT4) – the ability to pull players S/S stats onto the HUD also seems beneficial (IF you also pay for a silver subscription!!)

 

So yeah,… I’m very interested to hear any thoughts, and hopefully I will continue to see you on the tables, although right now I just don’t know…

Help me Tikay, -you’re my only hope    ;-)

 

-          PJ

 

*I appreciate it might seem like I’m relying on Sharkscope a lot here, but I was mainly just using it to chart my profit / loss and the above issues have highlighted to me that it’s a useful free tool, but also has huge limitations, hence this potential overhaul of my ‘set-up’.

Phantom66

My question to you would be why bother?

To play on a reg infested HUD using site - you will need to adapt to that site, invest in the s/w and learn to use it - will take time and money which is -EV short term and not guaranteed +EV long term.

If the only reason was inaccurate allocation of free tickets and the associated unfair minus balance - you can request that S/S update your stats.

If your game has improved and you are getting +ve results on here why change?

weecheez1

This seems very complicated to a newbie like me why use this when you have already identified the leaks I think stats can take over and change the way you play your natural game

PuppetJack

I haven't identified the leaks....yet

I have an idea of where leaks may be, but I might be way off base, & the things I think I might be doing wrong, maybe I'm not, & maybe other parts of my play overall. and I agree that leaning on stats during play is NOT beneficial to general play, but the in-depth post play analysis surely is.

@Phantom66 - "why bother?", - to try & find areas of my play which are causing me to lose money long-term. and yes, there would be set-up cost in getting going, but thinking longer term, it may benefit with pointers that I'm highly unlikely to guess on my own (emphasis on 'might')

Am I calling to much on the flop? Am I not calling enough? Am I playing pockert pairs optimally? Am I getting involved in high variance hands too often? - these are all  the sorts things I want to evaluate, and whilst decent players might have a good grasp on these factors, mine is less so because for years I've been a very casual / social player, not too focused on my poor play. 

( & yes, I do understand a lot of these are largely situational) 

radiofed28

I have used a HUD(HEM) for years on other sites before coming to Sky, which I now play almost exclusively. As a learning tool, they can be useful, since often you may not be aware exactly how often you are folding here, or re-raising there, etc. But if you are like me and most other people (probably 95% of users), you will never really actually use it for serious analysis (which can be very tedious) as at low stakes you are always changing things as you learn through play, and your opponents as well are also changing. 

I think the "leak finders" are also probably over-rated, since it is hardly worth changing your c-bet from 45% to 65% on the turn unless you really understand the theory: i.e. which cards, textures, opponents, etc. So it may seem like a quick fix, but it really isn't -- in fact, it can often be damaging as you change things despite not really understanding why. In the end it often just boils down to having "stats" on your opponent, since you can track wins/lossess etc. yourself just using excel or something. This is arguably only essential when you are multi-tabling a lot (8+), since it becomes a lot harder to keep track of how each player is playing.

Personally, I much prefer playing somewhere without a HUD. It's kind of revitalised poker for me, since everything becomes personal again. But then I've had the benefit of using it for a long time, so maybe I'm forgetting how much it helped me at the start. I do have an inkling that had I spend hours playing poker instead of configuring and colour-coding my sexy HUD I would be a better player today.

My advice: track your winnings yourself, and don't worry too much about the HUD advantages. The grass is always greener. I think most sites will end up getting rid down the line anyway (Unibet also bans HUDs now). 

Tikay10

In Response to to HUD, or not to HUD:

Ok, I suppose the crux of my question, is to HUD, or not to HUD? I understand that sky does not permit HUDs & in ways I do kind of agree. it’s far better to have to pay attention, notice player proclivities & adapt your play as you would live in order to make you a better player, as opposed to some other sites whereby some of the more ‘dedicated to profits’ players, use them to list VPIP / PFR / 3B% stats et al, whilst playing - although that surely can’t hurt once your ROI once you get swift at processing & analysing the data. I’m not what you’d call a winning player. I’m more in the lower end of the break-even camp.  My Sky chart on Sharkscope (prior to today’s reset) was clearly one of an MTT player with gradual slow declines, followed by abrupt jumps upwards. That said, I was only about 200 pounds down (after about 8 years play on this site) – with several wins over the £100 pound mark. I personally consider that not too bad for a small stakes player (generally £10 />). Over the last few months however, I have made a concerted effort to try & improve my play. To not be in the mind-set of just blindly clicking buttons whilst watching TV or browsing the web (which I have done a LOT!), and to be more patient & focused, think more about my plays & other player’s holdings and quite obviously it has yielded great results! My win rate in DYMs & SnG’s increased significantly & I was ramping up the deficit on my Sharkscope chart which was my year end goal, and it WAS going great…. until I won a UKPC free roll in December, which Sharkscope doesn’t track. So it didn’t attribute me the £100 prize, nor did it track the £240 entry into the UKPC final, - but it did track the £240 loss when I didn’t win! – so that’s basically bottomed out my sharkscope chart, which has ruined my goal & disheartened my continued efforts to get my chart to rise up from the red. All this has led me to start looking at poker tracking software: mainly to keep an accurate personal record of my profit loss, but also as a way of analysing my play in-depth and I’ve been particularly impressed with the leak identifiers that they contain, as I am reasonably sure that I have some leaks (not going to mention them here) and having some statistical analysis of my play will probably yield massive dividends. – problem being of course that Sky does not tie in with either Pokertracker 4 or the sharkscope HUD (those are the two I’ve narrowed it to). So I’m now at a crossroads here as to whether I use my relatively unused account on another site in order to focus on improving my game, whilst continuing to play on SKY from time to time. – BUT I know what I’m like though, & when I first started on sky ( because of the TV channel admittedly ), - I gravitated from another site, to end up solely playing here and I just don’t know whether I will actually juggle multiple sites, as I can see myself falling into one or the other as my ‘regular’ one & by regular I mean 95%+ If I invest in improvement sources & plugins for the alternative site, I think that I might drift away from Sky, which would be a genuine shame after all these years. As I stated, I have reset my Sharkscope chart for my Sky account, so “new year, clean slate”, but I also want to genuinely improve my game and I think that continuing my present dedication & focus whilst also utilising a HUD / Leak finder might be the way I go for me…, This is due to a multitude of factors, but one of which is the impression I’m given that nowadays SKY seems to want to cater more-so for the higher stake regs & those in the bigger tourneys, as opposed to the meagre “baby-stakes players”, like it used to be back in the day…. Irrespective of my views on the site above, my question is still around the use of HUD tools. What are people’s views on these tools? Has anyone used one & seen improvements? Did you stay with Sky & play across multiple sites? Which poker tracking software did you use? (& why?) I’m leaning towards Pokertracker4, however the S/S HUD looks pretty swish also (although the leak finder seems less in-depth than PT4) – the ability to pull players S/S stats onto the HUD also seems beneficial (IF you also pay for a silver subscription!!)   So yeah,… I’m very interested to hear any thoughts, and hopefully I will continue to see you on the tables, although right now I just don’t know… Help me Tikay, -you’re my only hope    ;-)   -           PJ   *I appreciate it might seem like I’m relying on Sharkscope a lot here, but I was mainly just using it to chart my profit / loss and the above issues have highlighted to me that it’s a useful free tool, but also has huge limitations, hence this potential overhaul of my ‘set-up’.
Posted by PuppetJack

Ha, I'm afraid if I am your only hope, then Bob Hope or No Hope might be a better bet.
 
I can't assist at all, as I've never used third party software, & I never will. I am not of the view that poker was designed to be played with the assistance of readily available stats & computer programmes. It's an age thing, not having a pop at you or anyone else, but I just don't think it is how poker was intended to be played. We play Live Poker without all that stuff, & Live Poker is great fun.
 
I do refer to Sharkscope a fair bit, but only to get a sort of rough & ready guide to my opponents abilities & usual format.
 
I absolutely admire your determination to improve, though, & wish you the very best of luck. Be careful with those stats, though, it's very important to interpret them correctly, if you don't, you'll be worse off.   

Tikay10

In Response to Re: to HUD, or not to HUD:

I have used a HUD(HEM) for years on other sites before coming to Sky, which I now play almost exclusively. As a learning tool, they can be useful, since often you may not be aware exactly how often you are folding here, or re-raising there, etc. But if you are like me and most other people (probably 95% of users), you will never really actually use it for serious analysis (which can be very tedious) as at low stakes you are always changing things as you learn through play, and your opponents as well are also changing.  I think the "leak finders" are also probably over-rated, since it is hardly worth changing your c-bet from 45% to 65% on the turn unless you really understand the theory: i.e. which cards, textures, opponents, etc. So it may seem like a quick fix, but it really isn't -- in fact, it can often be damaging as you change things despite not really understanding why. In the end it often just boils down to having "stats" on your opponent, since you can track wins/lossess etc. yourself just using excel or something. This is arguably only essential when you are multi-tabling a lot (8+), since it becomes a lot harder to keep track of how each player is playing. Personally, I much prefer playing somewhere without a HUD. It's kind of revitalised poker for me, since everything becomes personal again. But then I've had the benefit of using it for a long time, so maybe I'm forgetting how much it helped me at the start. I do have an inkling that had I spend hours playing poker instead of configuring and colour-coding my sexy HUD I would be a better player today. My advice: track your winnings yourself, and don't worry too much about the HUD advantages. The grass is always greener. I think most sites will end up getting rid down the line anyway (Unibet also bans HUDs now). 
Posted by radiofed28

That's a great post (imo), perfectly presented.

The last sentence is also true. The whole industry stance on HUD's has flip-flopped in the last 18 months, & that trend, including much of the third party software currently available, will continue. That's a fact, not an opinion.
 
Sky Poker's customer research, over 9 years now, has consistently seen the majority of players saying they don't want HUD's & the like here.     

devil_tear

If your goal is to find leaks in your game, then you dont need a HUD to do so. There are many poker tools online you can use away from the tables that let you analyse your hands to see if your making the best math based decisions, Like flopzilla. My favourite poker tool is Poker Snowie which helps you make the best game theory optimal decisions (GTO).

FeelGroggy

In Response to to HUD, or not to HUD:

nowadays SKY seems to want to cater more-so for the higher stake regs & those in the bigger tourneys, as opposed to the meagre “baby-stakes players”, like it used to be back in the day….

Surely by sky banning Huds they actually protect these 'baby-stakes players' as it stops the regs having more information on them, which recs will never have as they wouldn't get HUDS themselves/ want them/ use them usefully. I would argue sky do a very good job for low stakes players, I think the freerolls are quite good here for lower stake players, with them having a shot at getting to the UKPC £1,100 live event for free, for example.

For me, I think most of the improvement I experienced came from discussing hands and strategy with other players away from the tables so i would reccommend going down that route if possible. You have to be able to take criticism though. You could also join a Poker Training Site and watch videos made by pros going over their hand histories. ( I'm recently signed up for Tournament Poker Edge and seems helpful) When I started transitioning from a losing to winning player much of it was down to watching Gripsed's free training videos on youtube so i would also recommend that.  For me I don't feel like Huds much improved my play at all, although I also doubt I was utilising it properly.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: to HUD, or not to HUD:

In Response to Re: to HUD, or not to HUD : That's a great post (imo), perfectly presented. The last sentence is also true. The whole industry stance on HUD's has flip-flopped in the last 18 months, & that trend, including much of the third party software currently available, will continue. That's a fact, not an opinion.   Sky Poker's customer research, over 9 years now, has consistently seen the majority of players saying they don't want HUD's & the like here.      
Posted by Tikay10

+1 Radiofed summed it up very well.

Sharkscope isn't the best at tracking profit/loss if you really wanna be accurate. I'd recommend just having a spreadsheet that you fill in at the end of each session, only takes 2 mins if that. I can send you a copy/template of the one I use if you want cos I like to break mine down into MTTs, cash etc on different tabs, then having a front page that with all monthly profits/losses. All done by formulae cos I'm a bit of a spreadsheet nerd.

As for spotting leaks, I'm not trying to poach for coaching lol but I've coached a couple of people in the past and if you just got a very good player to watch you play 5-6 tables (screen sharing), I reckon after 30-45 mins they'd easily be able to give you a list of things to work on... that is assuming you have lots of leaks, I have no idea how good you are myself.

Someone may offer to do it for free, but even if you have to pay someone £20 for an hour of their time or something it'll be a fair bit cheaper than any tracking software and probably a ton more helpful to get you on the right road initially.

unknown_username

i tracked my wins/losses thru my bank account looked how much i deposited and how much i withdrew from the 1st jan 2015 to 31st dec 2015 im a hundred quid up with a few quid in me roll,over the moon i am over the moon free poker fun for a whole year

PuppetJack

Hi all,

A massive thanks for your feedback, it really is appreciated.

I've taken it all on board & have been thinking about it all day & I've decided to stick around and perservere - at least for the next few months. 

As a few of you said, with my game having been on the up for the last little bit, I should just focus on that without too many other distractions. and if I use those Apps, so will many opponents

tbh, it's actually the forum contributions that've helped me to come to the decision, I used to be fairly active on here before a change in my personal circumstances & tbh I rarely visit anymore, which is a shame! I guess that's maybe why I've felt a bit dejected with the site.

As a few of you mentioned, I should maybe set up my own Win / Loss tracker & maintain that, rather than pay for a software app.  Lambert - as you stated, perhaps some coaching or whatever might help me.

 to think Positive I've set myself a goal of being +£200 by March. - it's ambitious so there's every chance I'll fail, - but I'd rather set a high bar and push myself than a low one just because.

And to start it off, I'm currently 4 games ( & £20) down.

I hit a set, - they've got a flush. - I get a flush, theirs is bigger. - I trap with aces, - called by 44 and lose t a running flush. *sigh*... oh well. 

What a Great start.

I'm off to nurse the bruises on my hand following that last bad beat.

cheers all.

TeddyBloat

i luuurve my poker tracker and HUD.

i am a proper poker geek and being able to generate population tendencies, analyse lines, break down a particular villains's strategy is just lovely stuff to me. reinvigorated my love of poker.

my table set up would horrify tikay tbh. but i wouldnt have it any other way.

with regard to leak finding i agree that getting a player / coach to review a session, or merely posting and talking about hands here will be a great help.

one downside is you cannot track your progress on sky. setting monetary goals isnt ideal as you could play a hand horribly and it might get you through the money bubble or win you a huge cash pot. you could play marvelous poker and brick every draw and fade few redraws, get coolered in cruical pots etc.

i can track my EV progress and allin luck and actual $$ won is of little concern to me. if i increase my expected winrate then that will look after itself

PuppetJack

A couple of hours work & I'm pretty happy with my littl;e spreadsheet. capacity for up to 1,000,000 games.





I will work on fleshing it out with saome filters on other tabs so I can valuate where my higher win rate (per game type / stake etc).

As Teddy noted above, - it would be nice if I had some means of auto-pulling my hand accomplishments to try & find weak spots, but oh well. - guess I'll continue as is for now!

thanks all for your advice again.

TeddyBloat

  

Www.pokerscore.co.UK is a nifty sng spreadsheet. Free too.

I used it in my early sky days.

A sharkscope subscription is very useful also as you can filter for specific games when scoping villains and as well as drilling down on your own results.

Glgl

NChanning

 I definitely think the New Year is a good time to try things and I would agree with a lot of things that have been said here. People often set targets to diet, give up drinking, go to the gymn, not buy a coffee at work every day and poker training sites usually find that people sign-up a lot in January.

 While I definitely feel that HUDs have been a bad thing for the game and I wish they had never been invented I also agree that they can really help you improve your game. There is a bit of an if though...they are not going to do all the work for you and while a quick glance at someone's VPIP or 3-bet % is useful, to really get the benefit of analysing your own game it's going to take work. Most recreational players don't really like their hobby to be work and they don't want to spend 20% of their poker time on improving rather than actually playing.

 I think if you have an idea where your leaks are but they are still leaking you are half-way there to having a better 2016. People that say I know I call too often, or I don't 3-bet enough, or I play too often out of position or I tilt a bit after I lose a flip don't need a HUD to get better, they just need the self-control and the will to win that stops them doing those things.

 I would say that having experienced a few sites before I came to Sky Poker the styles at each one are different and the idea that you can "learn poker with a HUD over there" and then "bring back the magic secret here" isn't going to work. I agree it's all poker but I think as a group the play is different and it will need some adapting. For one thing Sky is 6-max and a lot of other sites are not. Obviously Stars for example has 6-max cash and lots of 6-max tournaments but I think the style played there is massively different to here. 

 I think if I had limited time and wanted to improve I'd start with training videos and go from there.