What a quality call!!

PuppetJack · January 2016

How can you play against this,.... I mean really.....

Hand History #987912701 (19:36 07/01/2016)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancePuppetJackSmall blind 200.00200.00675.00xxxxxxBig blind 400.00600.002435.00 Your hole cardsA3 Llama86Fold thedob5707Fold PuppetJackAll-in 675.001275.000.00xxxxxxCall 475.001750.001960.00PuppetJackShowA3 xxxxxxShow72 Flop 688 Turn 7 River K xxxxxxWinTwo Pairs, 8s and 7s1750.00 3710.00

FeelGroggy · January 2016

In Response to What a quality call!!:

How can you play against this,.... I mean really..... Hand History #987912701 (19:36 07/01/2016) Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance PuppetJack Small blind 200.00 200.00 675.00 xxxxxx Big blind 400.00 600.00 2435.00 Your hole cards A 3 Llama86 Fold thedob5707 Fold PuppetJack All-in 675.00 1275.00 0.00 xxxxxx Call 475.00 1750.00 1960.00 PuppetJack Show A 3 xxxxxx Show 7 2 Flop 6 8 8 Turn 7 River K xxxxxx Win Two Pairs, 8s and 7s 1750.00 3710.00
Posted by PuppetJack

This call isn't even bad. He only has to risk 475 to win a 1750 pot. He needs to win about 27-28% of the time to breakeven on this call. Against your exact hand he actually has a 35% chance to win. If its a bounty it would be a big mistake to fold this hand. 72 sucks but he's getting the right price

Nuggy962 · January 2016

correct call there for sure

yuranASSet · January 2016

I thought that you had said on a previous post that you had A'd your finals doing poker probabilities?

Am I missing something?

BigBluster · January 2016

Jack,

The only mistake made was yours and that was a small one. The villain's call was correct (from the information provided). Your play could have theoretically been better by making a stop-and-go play, on the basis that shoving pre would always get a call.

hhyftrftdr · January 2016

In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:

Jack, The only mistake made was yours and that was a small one. The villain's call was correct (from the information provided). Your play could have theoretically been better by making a stop-and-go play, on the basis that shoving pre would always get a call.
Posted by BigBluster

Eh? How can he stop and go in that spot?

BigBluster · January 2016

In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:

In Response to Re: What a quality call!! : Eh? How can he stop and go in that spot?
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Limp from the SB and shove any flop.

hhyftrftdr · January 2016

In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:

In Response to Re: What a quality call!! : Limp from the SB and shove any flop.
Posted by BigBluster

What happens if BB raises? You should be closing the action pre for a stop and go.

BigBluster · January 2016

In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:

In Response to Re: What a quality call!! : What happens if BB raises? You should be closing the action pre for a stop and go.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

You are correct of course: the strict definition of a stop-and-go involves closing the action pre. You know the point I'm trying to make though.

hhyftrftdr · January 2016

In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:

In Response to Re: What a quality call!! : You are correct of course: the strict definition of a stop-and-go involves closing the action pre. You know the point I'm trying to make though.
Posted by BigBluster

Think shoving is way better than doing that ^

BigRonnieC · January 2016

Did you steal his blinds before this?

It is an odd call, but not mathematically absurd and he likely has 2 live cards. I don't think I have ever called an all in with 72 unless the short stack was blinded out.

mrleemr1 · January 2016

Easy call?

PuppetJack · January 2016

In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:

Did you steal his blinds before this? It is an odd call, but not mathematically absurd and he likely has 2 live cards. I don't think I have ever called an all in with 72 unless the short stack was blinded out.

Posted by BigRonnieC

Nope - Bearing in mind this was a DYM, on the bubble, I was 1st in chips 2 orbits previous but was hemorrhaging chips.

The last two Orbits my BB had been shoved into & i think the highest card I'd seen AT ALL was a J (maybe with a 2 or 3 as a kicker). - I was trying to tighten up to not blow it by shoving into a bigger hand ( as seems to keep happening) the two shortest stacks had also had 'walks;' in both orbits, so my stack was depleting fast, and the shorter stacks were staying bouyant. (& as all the stacks were relatively short, people were potentially calling wider, but I didn't imagine this wide)

**** Edit****

In the interests of full disclosure have gone back through the last hands running up to this.....

4s 8d

Jc 4h

Ks 8d ( Ok, potentially I could've shoved here as was 2nd to act.)

4h 6c

Ah 5s (was shoved into by a smaller stack, if I had've been wrong would've crippled myself) - Perhaps a bit nitty in hindsight, but it just seemed likely at the time that they had a pretty good hand.

7s 3d

Qh 5d

************

I thought that you had said on a previous post that you had A'd your finals doing poker probabilities? Am I missing something?

Posted by yuranASSet

No, I wrote a poker program as a software development exam. I'm not an expert on poker probability, although I'd like to think that I know the difference between a good & a bad call. - given the replies on here however, perhaps I have no clue at all.

In Response to What a quality call!! : This call isn't even bad. He only has to risk 475 to win a 1750 pot. He needs to win about 27-28% of the time to breakeven on this call. Against your exact hand he actually has a 35% chance to win. If its a bounty it would be a big mistake to fold this hand. 72 sucks but he's getting the right price

Posted by FeelGroggy

I know any live cards as a n approx 30% to hit ( & that both his cards are probably live) but trust me, - this player was NOT calculating pot odds, or probabilities of any type.

Jack, The only mistake made was yours and that was a small one. The villain's call was correct (from the information provided). Your play could have theoretically been better by making a stop-and-go play, on the basis that shoving pre would always get a call.
Posted by BigBluster

I had a 65%+ chance to double my stack. - how was this incorrect, & if I elect ot just complete the SB, what's to say the BB doesn't take that as weakness & shove? in such a case I have to call anyway right? as I'm not going to surrender 1/4 of my stack & leave myself with 2> BB's now am I?

...oh well.

alex1229 · January 2016

Lol, this is a non story. Player shoves, player calls for an extra 200, you lose. end of. stop whinging and move on.

PuppetJack · January 2016

In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:

Lol, this is a non story. Player shoves, player calls for an extra 200, you lose. end of. stop whinging and move on.
Posted by alex1229

thanks for your quality input. I guess the clinic is closed.

mrleemr1 · January 2016

If this was a mistake its your opponents not yours, so its completely irrelvant. I know its annoying losing to 72 dude but build a bridge time

TeddyBloat · January 2016

its very unlikely that calling here is a mistake.

in pure chip ev its a clear call.

in icm terms hero would have to shoving ridiculously tight for it to be a fold, and thats if the two folded players are roughly evenly stacked.

if you turned over your cards pre and showed me A3 i would snap call 72o.

BigRonnieC · January 2016

So you had gone from a healthy stack to weak by being shoved on with large blinds?

If you waited a while to shove (and it seems you did), that would project a tighter image, but with the villain's chips, his big blind (don't know history of you two) he has to call...

Just with 7 2 seems wrong. 72, J2 and Q3 - I will almost never play those hands out of the disgust that if I hit the board I would have to show hand

I'd have shoved the K8 or 64 previously - the longer you wait, the more you lose in dead chips, the weaker you look and, if you do pick up a premium hand, the less likely you are to get value.

raggy94 · January 2016

In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:

Jack, The only mistake made was yours and that was a small one. The villain's call was correct (from the information provided). Your play could have theoretically been better by making a stop-and-go play, on the basis that shoving pre would always get a call.
Posted by BigBluster

Go and Go I guess is what it would be called. I think where the theory falls down a bit is that you're basing it being the best play on something which has been contradicted by the OP. Shallow stacked poker people probably make a similar amount of bad folds as they do bad calls.

Quite like the concept though, wonder if there might be a situation where if we had a lot worse hand and we figured our opponent to be calling 100% preflop we could maybe engineer ourselves a little fold equity freeroll?

RLT16 · January 2016

As a dym reg, I'd be snap calling here were on the bubble with a chance to win, im going to leave myself with close to 2000 chips behind anyway so even if my 72 loses there's still a good chance i cash and as you've only got 2 BB's yourself you should also be shoving any 2 cards so I'm rarely going to be in awful shape.

alex1229 · January 2016

In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:

In Response to Re: What a quality call!! : thanks for your quality input. I guess the clinic is closed.
Posted by PuppetJack

Your welcome - tbf though theres not much else to say? do some studying on pot odds and percentage of what hands beat others, if you had you;'d realise this is a non story.

F_Ivanovic · January 2016

Not mentioning in the original post that it was a DYM was a bit of a fail because in a non-DYM it is a snap call with any 2 cards. In a DYM then it is a lot closer because the only aim in it is to survive so just getting the pot odds alone does not always make a call correct. Was it a turno or normal DYM? Other stack sizes are relevant too. For example; if they are all 3 evenly matched then it makes complete sense for him to call with 72 but if he is the biggest stack and there are 2 other short stacks then the extra 475 chips are really useful to him.

As for not having a good oppertunity to shove beforehand: Your cards are often irrelevant in a DYM. You just need to find the right situations where you are shoving into opponents where it would be a mistake for them to call with anything other than a really strong hand.

What a quality call!!

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