is it strong enough

weecheez1

backtoworkSmall blind 10.0010.001990.0010014010Big blind 20.0030.001980.00 Your hole cards2JKA   weecheez1Raise 70.00100.001930.00Macacgirl1Fold    TubsmithyCall 70.00170.001930.00xxxxRaise 310.00480.001690.00backtoworkFold    10014010Fold    weecheez1Raise 960.001440.00970.00TubsmithyFold    xxxxxAll-in 1690.003130.000.00weecheez1All-in 970.004100.000.00weecheez1Show2JKA   xxxxShowA24A   Flop  294   Turn  10   River  7   xxxxxWin highTwo Pairs, 4s and 2s4100.00 4100.00 No qualifying low hand  this was the first hand of a£5 dmy and the opponent is tight as a drum i knew that i was facing a very strong hand but i felt mine was strong enough to take it down should i have waited my thoughts were ive covered highs lows flushes and straights

VespaPX

It is a very strong hand but 1st hand of a DYM against a tight reg i would possibly flat the 3 bet and re-assess after the flop.

Tikay10

Hi cheezy.

If the villain was, as you suggest, "tight as a drum", what range do you put him on when he wants to get it all-in pre flop on the very first hand of level one?

If he is tight, his range is pretty narrow I'd say.

weecheez1

In Response to Re: is it strong enough:

It is a very strong hand but 1st hand of a DYM against a tight reg i would possibly flat the 3 bet and re-assess after the flop.
Posted by VespaPX

agreed its still the old brag mentality i need to take an extra couple of seconds before acting

Tikay10

In Response to Re: is it strong enough:

In Response to Re: is it strong enough : agreed its still the old brag mentality i need to take an extra couple of seconds before acting
Posted by weecheez1

Exactly that.

I'm certainly not criticising you, I'm just answering the question, & trying to help, but this was a bad play. The player in question can only have one hand here. Nothing less. At BEST you were playing for half. So zero upside & 100% downside.
 
These are the little quirks of the game that make the difference between profit & loss.

Let's simplify this one.

First hand of Level 1 & Mr Tight as a Drum wants to get the lot in. His range is ?

Level 8, Mr Tight as a Drum has 3 Bigs, & shoves from the button. His range is ?

Same player, totally different range.  

weecheez1

In Response to Re: is it strong enough:

In Response to Re: is it strong enough : Exactly that. I'm certainly not criticising you, I'm just answering the question, & trying to help, but this was a bad play. The player in question can only have one hand here. Nothing less. At BEST you were playing for half. So zero upside & 100% downside.   These are the little quirks of the game that make the difference between profit & loss. Let's simplify this one. First hand of Level 1 & Mr Tight as a Drum wants to get the lot in. His range is ? Level 8, Mr Tight as a Drum has 3 Bigs, & shoves from the button. His range is ? Same player, totally different range.  
Posted by Tikay10

Agreed  sir I think vesta had a point about peeling a flop i had a strong hand the only thing it lacked was a pair I think most people would have struggled to lay this hand down but also in the back of my mind was the fact that the gentleman in question seemed to be playing a lot looser of late would you off peeled a flop regardless of who you were playing or mucked it

Tikay10

I think the key to this one is......

1) Ultra tight player

2) He wants to get the lot in (pot-pot-pot etc) very first hand of Level One.
 
Yes, your hand is very strong, & in Level 6 or 8, 4 handed, it's going in with this. But not (imo) in Hand One Level One.   

HENDRIK62

I like making your initial raise smaller (I know we may get some callers, but your hand plays beautifully multi way), then peel the 'cheaper' 3 bet (obviously this does not apply if the pot is bloated and the 3 bet makes it too expensive).

This is very player dependant, there are certainly a handful of players that would likely squeeze here and I would be more than happy to dance.....

eon1961

In Response to Re: is it strong enough:

I like making your initial raise smaller (I know we may get some callers, but your hand plays beautifully multi way), then peel the 'cheaper' 3 bet (obviously this does not apply if the pot is bloated and the 3 bet makes it too expensive). This is very player dependant, there are certainly a handful of players that would likely squeeze here and I would be more than happy to dance.....
Posted by HENDRIK62

I believe I am xxxx been called worse though

Tikay10

In Response to Re: is it strong enough:

In Response to Re: is it strong enough : I believe I am xxxx been called worse though
Posted by eon1961

I don't think you are, but you'd have played that hand in that spot identically. In fact, most semi-competent or better players would.  

weecheez1

All good answers and I think it's a good hand to discuss

F_Ivanovic

+1 to hendrik I would make it a smaller raise pre (40) Our hand is great to take multi-way with a nut low possibility, a nut FD, a 2nd nut FD and some nut straight possibilities. As played shoving is def. a mistake. Don't know whether I would fold or call. If we think tubsmithy will come along then calling might be OK since we have enough implied odds 3 way. But if it's HU only I don't think we do.

BigRonnieC

I don't think I would ever shove 1st hand of a DYM (you said dmy in OP which means don't sh 1t yourself in USA)... unless I had AA in cut off or after. Even so you immediately cut your odds for game. 70% chance to double up? Fine but now you're seen as have a go hero or raises don't get called. 30% you lose. That's hold'em. In Omaha you can slice those odds then slice them again. 

What's the gain?

Tikay10

In Response to Re: is it strong enough:

I don't think I would ever shove 1st hand of a DYM (you said dmy in OP which means don't sh 1t yourself in USA)... unless I had AA in cut off or after. Even so you immediately cut your odds for game. 70% chance to double up? Fine but now you're seen as have a go hero or raises don't get called. 30% you lose. That's hold'em. In Omaha you can slice those odds then slice them again.  What's the gain?
Posted by BigRonnieC

Ronnie,

You are fast becoming one of my favourite posters here. Would love to see you post on the other Boards, especially Poker Chat, where your brand of earthy common-sense would cut a lot of ice. But even if you stick to the Hand Analysis Boards, I'll take that. 

"What's the gain?" sums it up perfectly.  

Tikay10

Ok cheezy, a bit more perspective for you.

As played, the Villain can ONLY have one hand, & whilst we can't see the equity up front, here's what shape you were in;

Your hand CANNOT win the Low. Ever. You will chop the Low 36% of the time. 

Your hand can SCOOP 21.8% of the time. Villain's hand SCOOPS 37% of the time. Don't forget, the idea of the game is to SCOOP, not chop, or be freerolled.

Your pre-flop equity was 37%, Villain's pre-flop equity was 63%.
 
    

Tikay10

Finally, the Villain in this case was me, & here's how I play Aces on Hand One of Level 1, in fact, this applies to Levels 1, 2 & 3.

I will limp pre, & give up on any flop which does not contain an ace, or 4 of my nut suit, or an open ended wheel draw or nut low. I won't put another chip in if I don't hit the flop. 20 chips is my total investment. In the bin they go.
 
But.....

If someone raises in front of me - or even better, if in front of me it goes RAISE-CALL, now I'm potting it. Ideally, I want it Heads Up, & I'll pot pot pot pre.

That raise in front of me is the key part. Without it, I can't play the hand beyond a limp, but once someone raises, it gives me the leverage to make a decent bet which is tough to call.
 
I PREFER the raiser to re-raise me now. If he limps, & the flop comes 2 or 3 low cards, & I don't have the nut low, I mostly have to give it up if he bets post flop. I'm not here to chop this pot, I'm here to scoop or fold.
 
If you had flatted my raise pre flop, & then lead out on the 9-4-2 Flop, I'm not sure what I do. I have 2 bad pairs (4-2), & I don't really know quite where I am. I might have gone to war I suppose, but a 2-4 flop is a VERY dangerous flop for my hand, I can lose the lot if you have a good wheel wrap & a scare card turns or rivers. So I might give it up there & then, as I've only invested 70 or whatever. 

Hope that helps.       

weecheez1

Yes it helps as I said earlier I was in no doubt what your range was I thought I still had a strong enough  hand that could have taken the high and at worse chopped the low I should have called instead of raising but I  think a fold straight away would of been a bad play that's why I asked you before I posted the hand I think it's better to talk about poker than moan about things

Tikay10

In Response to Re: is it strong enough:

Yes it helps as I said earlier I was in no doubt what your range was I thought I still had a strong enough  hand that could have taken the high and at worse chopped the low I should have called instead of raising but I  think a fold straight away would of been a bad play that's why I asked you before I posted the hand I think it's better to talk about poker than moan about things
Posted by weecheez1

You are my hero.

BigRonnieC

In Response to Re: is it strong enough:

In Response to Re: is it strong enough : Ronnie, You are fast becoming one of my favourite posters here. Would love to see you post on the other Boards, especially Poker Chat, where your brand of earthy common-sense would cut a lot of ice. But even if you stick to the Hand Analysis Boards, I'll take that.  "What's the gain?" sums it up perfectly.  
Posted by Tikay10

Sorry, I've been reading poker books and playing low enough stakes that I can look coldly at my own hands and smirk when the cards go against me and smile wryly (and apologise in chat) when I win a hand with "luck". 

I had aa v aj yesterday and lost. I had aa today and shoved in a limp fest game and got called by 54suited - I made quad aces. Poker is not like rugby where you can beat up an opponent and break them down. It is poker - where AA v 72 still makes you a loser 15% of the time (roughly). I wouldn't drive a car if I thought I was going to crash on 15% of journeys. 

When I have to call a shove with anything less than the nuts/an 80%+ fav (ie other guy has a gut shot or needs 1 card for flush on river) I have to be OK with losing a relatively high % of the time. Sets, 2 pair - they don't seem to come often but give your opponent 4 cards and let him see a flop and he might just have your "top top" pre flop hand broken. 

Tikay10

In Response to Re: is it strong enough:

In Response to Re: is it strong enough : Sorry, I've been reading poker books and playing low enough stakes that I can look coldly at my own hands and smirk when the cards go against me and smile wryly (and apologise in chat) when I win a hand with "luck".  I had aa v aj yesterday and lost. I had aa today and shoved in a limp fest game and got called by 54suited - I made quad aces. Poker is not like rugby where you can beat up an opponent and break them down. It is poker - where AA v 72 still makes you a loser 15% of the time (roughly). I wouldn't drive a car if I thought I was going to crash on 15% of journeys.  When I have to call a shove with anything less than the nuts/an 80%+ fav (ie other guy has a gut shot or needs 1 card for flush on river) I have to be OK with losing a relatively high % of the time. Sets, 2 pair - they don't seem to come often but give your opponent 4 cards and let him see a flop and he might just have your "top top" pre flop hand broken. 
Posted by BigRonnieC

At the risk of being sycophantic, can you stop with all this common-sense stuff please? 

If only some others could see it that simply. There is this entitlement thing - "I had Aces, so I must win, & if I lose, it's rigged".

Trying to explain that an 80% chance loses 20% of the time is harder than it seems.

And yes, we play every night, & we dish out shocking beats, & we receive shocking beats. It's all in the maths. Or should that be math?

I'm an Omaha guy, so I see some corkers. I'm on a bit of a downswing right now, but I just sit there & smile wryly, as my Aces get bust, but I can't bust aces, and last night I had a nut flush busted by a straight flush. And here's the key thing, imo - I play within my bankroll - well within it, average buy-in £5 from a £2,700 roll (all of it bar £200 is profit) - and so it does not hurt when we play within our means. When we face re-depositing if we lose, & we've spent our allowance already this month, yeah, it must pinch a bit.
 
What a great game poker is for exposing our true character.   
 

BigRonnieC

In Response to Re: is it strong enough:

In Response to Re: is it strong enough : At the risk of being sycophantic, can you stop with all this common-sense stuff please?  If only some others could see it that simply. There is this entitlement thing - "I had Aces, so I must win, & if I lose, it's rigged". Trying to explain that an 80% chance loses 20% of the time is harder than it seems. And yes, we play every night, & we dish out shocking beats, & we receive shocking beats. It's all in the maths. Or should that be math ? I'm an Omaha guy, so I see some corkers. I'm on a bit of a downswing right now, but I just sit there & smile wryly, as my Aces get bust, but I can't bust aces, and last night I had a nut flush busted by a straight flush. And here's the key thing, imo - I play within my bankroll - well within it, average buy-in £5 from a £2,700 roll (all of it bar £200 is profit) - and so it does not hurt when we play within our means. When we face re-depositing if we lose, & we've spent our allowance already this month, yeah, it must pinch a bit.   What a great game poker is for exposing our true character.     
Posted by Tikay10

I greaty respect the temperament of people who can play with high stakes relative to their bankroll and be successful. They are still playing on a knife edge though. 

If you play high stakes relative to bankroll and lose often, you are a bad gambler and need to readjust your outlook. That, or have your bankroll as a fraction of wages/income. 

The relevance of this is you can see the bad luck and variance for what it is and analyse your mistakes (poor raising pre flop, shoving post with a high pair on a wet board) and learn... if you react emotionally, you overlook mistakes and see the results (which may be bad luck). Never forget that poker is gambling and gamblers lose a lot.

unknown_username

hi, your had is good but I think you should just call the raise and go to the flop esp as its hi/lo . you got a nut and 2 nut flush draw ( that's handy ) A2 ( nut low ) AK, AJ, KJ which all work, then you got J2 and K2 ( not good ).
I just think that if as you say your opponent is as tight as you say then I prob wouldn't get it all in pre. 
with your hand you still need help vs what you could be up against.
saying that tho, I don't know enough anyway.