Poker. Business as usual?

Tikay10

Here's a whimsical little blog, with a question for you.

Would you chop? Well, yes or no?

http://bit.ly/20LcjNe

MrWh1te

I think I would probably chop.  But I am a small stake player and those sums are mind-boggling.  The extra £37.5k or so that you would get by doing a deal is 3 years wages for me.  And I only make £100 a month from poker.  So in that sense it makes sense as I am almost certainly not going to be in that situation again.

But then I would be massively happy with a minimum cash as I would most likely have won in through a freeroll

Is it +ev to chop in this situation?  I don't know.  Maybe someone better than me at figures could work that out

weecheez1

its got to be a chop unless you are mega loaded and money means nothing even then its a lot of money most of the players in this position will have been there before therfore the chop is the best option pay for there expenses into tournaments for the year

Itsover4u

In Response to Poker. Business as usual?:

Here's a whimsical little blog, with a question for you. Would you chop? Well, yes or no? http://bit.ly/20LcjNe
Posted by Tikay10

good read! I think you should be able to chop on here in the main mtts on a evening if the players agreed.

Always been a fan of chops.... its an art in itself

Tikay10

I think Mr Wh1te nails it, for a recreational it is, genuinely, a once in a lifetime situation. Finding yourself relying on a flip, as you almost inevitably will, the sheer chance of whether we hold or not for a £80,000 difference is, if we remove our thinking from poker, surreal.

Can you imagine in real life, an £80,000 decision? You'd want to weigh up the pros & cons, seek financial advice, ask the wife, whatever. Instead, we have to rely rely on chance, & the turn of a card for more money than most of us have ever seen in one lump, lifetime.
 
For a genuine Pro, of course, it's a different matter, though many of those would still chop. Mr ambo chopped a Comp at The Vic recently as, on balance, it made more sense. But if it were, say, a WSOP Event, I can't imagine he'd ever chop.     

VespaPX

In Response to Re: Poker. Business as usual?:

I think Mr Wh1te nails it, for a recreational it is, genuinely, a once in a lifetime situation. Finding yourself relying on a flip, as you almost inevitably will, the sheer chance of whether we hold or not for a £80,000 difference is, if we remove our thinking from poker, surreal. Can you imagine in real life, an £80,000 decision? You'd want to weigh up the pros & cons, seek financial advice, ask the wife, whatever. Instead, we have to rely rely on chance, & the turn of a card for more money than most of us have ever seen in one lump, lifetime.   For a genuine Pro, of course, it's a different matter, though many of those would still chop. Mr ambo chopped a Comp at The Vic recently as, on balance, it made more sense. But if it were, say, a WSOP Event, I can't imagine he'd ever chop.      
Posted by Tikay10

Even his hair?

F_Ivanovic

Unless you were on the recieving end of a huge +ev proposition then I would NEVER chop it up 8 handed. 5 handed it would have to be a decent +ev proposition for me to want to chop and 4 handed the same. It's only when it gets to 3 handed that I would consider a chop.

I live a pretty low-cost lifestyle right now and don't value money as much as others. An extra £10k would be nice, but I don't consider it hugely valuable - it would give me more disposable income that I don't really need but would find a way to spend. However, an extra £60k would be a bit more life-changing. 

It's the same reason I've never spent money on scratch cards but do occasionally buy a lottery ticket. If I'm going to take a -ev propsotion then it's only because the outcome could be life-changing.

As for the suggestion of making flat payout structures? It's a bad idea IMO. And it would fundamentally change how tournaments are played. Locking up min-cashes would suddenly become more important. Instead of going for the win, people with medium stacks will be more chip preservant and be content to get to the FT as opposed to taking a risk and going for the win.

Even with lots of chops, having a big stack is always going to be to your advantage because it guarantees you the lion-share of the chop. But if it's set in stone what first place gets and you still need to get there then having a big stack is less of an advantage.

Tikay10

^^^

How would you explain that quite remarkable 8 way chop?

Rare to see it chopped 8 ways in such a big event, even rarer to find 8 poker players on one table who all agree with something. In my experience, these deal discussions are generally acrimonious & shouty-wouty.

Enut

I think the problem lies in the payout structure on the FT. You estimated that 70+% of MTTs end up in a chop which quite clearly shows that the majority of players think that the payouts near the end of a tourney are not as they would prefer, or at least they do when they get there!

Yes we would all go for the win and yes if we have an edge then it doesn't make sense to chop but the simple fact that an edge is just that - an edge. In my opinion and many, better, players will disagree, once you get down to the last few players the deciding factor is lady luck. In general there is not a lot of 'play' left at the very end of a tournament, if you win your flips or are on the right end of a cooler then you will probably win, vice versa or if you run card dead then you probably won't last long on the final table.

I would prefer to see more even prize jumps later on in MTTs but this has a down side - many players look at what's on offer for the win and that's why they enter the tournament - the chance for a big pay day.

Just my view and probably clouded by the fact that I can't remember the last time I ran well at the end of a MTT.

Edit - forgot to answer the question! Yes I would probably chop.

Jac35

A rather leading post Tikay

However, I've always been in the deal camp with this.

There can be a pretty unpleasant side to it all as well. There have been many occasions when less experienced players get a terrible deal. I've always thought the floor should be more on top of this.

Similar is a lot of people's pet hate in paying more places.

Again I've always been happy with this. I do know that I'm in the minority but I'm happy to do it.

Sometimes is works for us and sometimes it's the other way but hopefully it evens out in the end.

Regardless of my stack I'll agree whenever this comes up.

I'm not playing for huge sums of money and it just seems to be the nice thing to do, to me.

Last Sunday I played a £30 rebuy. There were 5 places paid and 7 left. I was comfortably in last position and so it wasn't my place to say anything. I was quite happy when it was suggested that we pay 7. Was it +ev for the chipleader? Absolutely not. Was it decent of him to agree? Absolutely.

First place prize money dropped from £960 to £800 and the other places similarly. Is £800 still ok for a £30 game on a Sunday night? It is to me.

Also, it's the same players week in and week out and so as I said before, hopefully it all evens out in the end. 

I ended up coming second for £500 and was annoyed at that stage that I'd dealt. Should have been £650

bearlyther

If i had a nice chip lead at the ukpc final table 1st thing i would do would be to discuss a deal with such a huge amount of money on the line and the varience involved.  However if i was 1 of the shortest stacks at the table then i wouldnt deal. Taking a deal when your a short stack is bad longterm for you unless theve offered you a very good deal.

MrWh1te

In Response to Re: Poker. Business as usual?:

There can be a pretty unpleasant side to it all as well. There have been many occasions when less experienced players get a terrible deal. I've always thought the floor should be more on top of this.Posted by Jac35

I have a story to tell on this, and to this day it bugs me that I wasn't more vocal about it.

My mate and I were playing in the casino and he joined the mtt for the night (his first ever game), only a £20 buyin and money was no object to him, but that wasn't the point.

It gets down to heads up, my mate V an old regular.  The regular suggested at about 2am that they split the pot 50/50.  My mate agreed, even when I pointed out that my mate had a chiplead and it should be more. He just wanted the game over.

The bit that made me mad, was when the regular turned round after getting the cash and said to my mate 'you won, you had most chips, you have to give the dealer £20' and walked off, leaving my mate with the dealer.  My mate then had to tip him or look like a douchebag.

Some people are just lame.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Poker. Business as usual?:

In Response to Re: Poker. Business as usual? : I have a story to tell on this, and to this day it bugs me that I wasn't more vocal about it. My mate and I were playing in the casino and he joined the mtt for the night (his first ever game), only a £20 buyin and money was no object to him, but that wasn't the point. It gets down to heads up, my mate V an old regular.  The regular suggested at about 2am that they split the pot 50/50.  My mate agreed, even when I pointed out that my mate had a chiplead and it should be more. He just wanted the game over. The bit that made me mad, was when the regular turned round after getting the cash and said to my mate 'you won, you had most chips, you have to give the dealer £20' and walked off, leaving my mate with the dealer.  My mate then had to tip him or look like a douchebag. Some people are just lame.
Posted by MrWh1te

Ha, that's a stonker of a story.

Only in poker, eh?

craigcu12

So the jackpots £110K, it's time to play split or steal.

"i'll split with you I promise, we've been truthful all the way no bluffs made, i promise you i'll split"

Hmm- steal ball V- split ball

"i'm so sorry I was thinking you were going to steal, jaspereo I'd like to split my jackpot amount in half"

jordz16

I dislike deals in general though I would agree to one if i was sure it was +ev for me, but i dubt i would ever actively seek one as generally if someone suggests a chop that normally means they have doubts about their ability to win and therefore you can probably get them to take a lessser offer. 

 I do think that the top few pay out places should be slightly flatter in turbo events where the skill edge is far less, But big long structured events should always be as bigger first prize as possible,

weecheez1

It seems reading these posts most people would split but only if it favoured them someone has got to take a slightly worse deal for it too work poker players are a bit greedy that's the nature of the game 

MattBates

In Response to Re: Poker. Business as usual?:

It seems reading these posts most people would split but only if it favoured them someone has got to take a slightly worse deal for it too work poker players are a bit greedy that's the nature of the game 
Posted by weecheez1

I have dealt before when 5 handed (if I remember correctly) and I had a big CL. I got nearing first place, the others (all with similar stacks) all locked a lot more up than they would get if they knocked out next so worked out well for everyone.

In a spot like mentioned at the UKPC I would go for the deal unless I felt I had a big edge with enough play still in the tournament. I have turned down deals before when either I felt it was a bad one, I was 3/3 and the additional didn't seem enough or where I felt I had a decent edge.