Omaha Draw Advice

Machka

Looking to get some feedback on how I should have played this and what I should have done on the turn?

On the flop I figured I was ahead but was waiting for someone to lead out but it never happened.

After the bet, raise and reraise on the turn I knew I was behind but didn't think or know if I had the odds to call.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
xxx	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£12.47
Tikay10	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£13.90
	Your hole cards	10 A K 5
mabsue	Call		£0.10	£0.25	£9.90
Machka	Call		£0.10	£0.35	£25.03
zzz	Call		£0.10	£0.45	£9.76
yyy	Call		£0.10	£0.55	£14.96
xxx	Call		£0.05	£0.60	£12.42
Tikay10	Check
Flop
		5 K Q
xxx	Check
Tikay10	Check
mabsue	Check
Machka	Check
zzz	Check
yyy	Check
Turn
		A
xxx	Check
Tikay10	Bet		£0.60	£1.20	£13.30
mabsue	Raise		£2.40	£3.60	£7.50
Machka	Call		£2.40	£6.00	£22.63
zzz	Fold
yyy	Fold
xxx	Fold
Tikay10	Raise		£9.60	£15.60	£3.70
mabsue	All-in		£7.50	£23.10	£0.00
Machka	Fold
Tikay10	Unmatched bet		£0.30	£22.80	£4.00
Tikay10	Show	8 A J 10
mabsue	Show	3 J Q 10
River
		9
mabsue	Win	Straight to the Ace	£10.83		£10.83
Tikay10	Win	Straight to the Ace	£10.83		£14.83

Tikay10

Hi Mach,

This one - which would be better in the Omaha board by the way - is easy.

On THAT flop, with THAT hand, you gotta pile the money in. You were MASSSIVE.

1) NEVER slow play it.

2) The fact you missed is irrelevant. You MUST bet out with that hand every street.

Machka

That's me told!

mabsue

100% i am pot betting every street with your hand Machka ul and gf as it turned out but you was probably close to 50/50 to win

Tikay10

I just ran this hand through an Odds Calculator Mach - it's a TERRIFIC example of why you have to BET your strong hands.

                                                     You         Me          Mabby

Pre-Flop - (not too relevant imo).         40%        30%         20% *

Flop                                                72%         3%            7% *

Turn                                               36%         63%         63%*

Perfect evidence of you you MUST bet these hands strongly in Omaha. IGNORE the Result - it's not relevant. Look at the maths.

(*The odds do not add to 100 because of split possibilities) 

Machka

Well, I've definitely learned something tonight!

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Omaha Draw Advice:

Well, I've definitely learned something tonight!
Posted by Machka

Then the night has been worthwhile.

Be interesting to see what Talon & Meredonkey say, too.

But those %'s say it all really. From hero to zero in one card!

Talon

  Ok lets have a look. No preflop raising so no real chance of anyone sitting on a monster hand(AAKK etc). You flopped 2 pair a gutshot and the nut flush draw which is about as perfect a flop as you can get with your hand. You are only losing at this point to KQ or a flopped set and neither of them i would worry unduly about at this point.The default setting on the flop when you hit big or pick up a massive draw should be to bet out.A pot sized bet should have gone in on that flop.This would thin the field out of people on weak draws as well as building the pot up.You should never look to someone else to open the betting or think about the check raise, this is holdem thinking and should not be in your mind in omaha.As it happens the 2 villains in this hand would not have folded but you want customers as you go down the streets.The surprising thing for me is the passivity of tikay on the flop, with the massive draw he picked up i would have expected him to lead out here.

  The turn card although it improves your hand is definately a bad card for you as it completes draws. The fold on the turn is on the tight side with all your outs (2A , 2K ,4J 2 5's and 7 spades) and you were getting odds of 3 to 1 which are enough to make that call and it be a winning play over time. You were behind but both of your opponents had dead hands so they wanted the hand over there and then.

 The main thing to come out of this is aggression.When you pick up a good hand or a great draw on the flop you have to bet out. Passivity until you hit will only lead to small pots as your hit card will probably kill any other drawing hands. It is very rare that a pot sized flop bet will lead to everyone folding because most will have picked up some piece of it to justify a call. This also opens the door for a turn bet of large size which can easily take down pots there and then

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Omaha Draw Advice:

  Ok lets have a look. No preflop raising so no real chance of anyone sitting on a monster hand(AAKK etc). You flopped 2 pair a gutshot and the nut flush draw which is about as perfect a flop as you can get with your hand. You are only losing at this point to KQ or a flopped set and neither of them i would worry unduly about at this point.The default setting on the flop when you hit big or pick up a massive draw should be to bet out.A pot sized bet should have gone in on that flop.This would thin the field out of people on weak draws as well as building the pot up.You should never look to someone else to open the betting or think about the check raise, this is holdem thinking and should not be in your mind in omaha.As it happens the 2 villains in this hand would not have folded but you want customers as you go down the streets.The surprising thing for me is the passivity of tikay on the flop, with the massive draw he picked up i would have expected him to lead out here.   The turn card although it improves your hand is definately a bad card for you as it completes draws. The fold on the turn is on the tight side with all your outs (2A , 2K ,4J 2 5's and 7 spades) and you were getting odds of 3 to 1 which are enough to make that call and it be a winning play over time. You were behind but both of your opponents had dead hands so they wanted the hand over there and then.  The main thing to come out of this is aggression.When you pick up a good hand or a great draw on the flop you have to bet out. Passivity until you hit will only lead to small pots as your hit card will probably kill any other drawing hands. It is very rare that a pot sized flop bet will lead to everyone folding because most will have picked up some piece of it to justify a call. This also opens the door for a turn bet of large size which can easily take down pots there and then
Posted by Talon

Ooh - I've been called a "villain" - at last, notoriety!

My flop passivity is easily explained - I timed out, as I was trying to answer a question on my other Omaha Table, & extinguish a Forum fire. And play Omaha on 2 Tables. Too much for me, I'm afraid, & I timed out way too much last night.

It was a great flop for me to bet, of course, but it's rare to see a flop that fits a hand as much as it did Machka's. It was a beaut.

Typically, if he'd have played it optimally, he'd have lost his entire pull-up. Such is poker.

Machka

Really, thanks for the feedback on this, it's helped a lot.

Tikay - you're a villan every Tuesday. ;-)

TP_Jakally

Raise pre, bet the flop, and if you call the turn you are obviously then only calling to hit, so make sure you have the odds.