Rules question

FILIPSEBO

I watched a video on Youtube where a player had the nuts and was the last to act but checked it back after the river. He was given a penalty for this where he had to sit out for one orbit of the table. Is this an official rule of the game or just specific to that tournament? If it is a recognised rule, is there a universal punishment for this or is it tournament specific? I'd be really interested to know the answer if anyone can oblige. Thanks

weecheez1

In Response to Rules question:

I watched a video on Youtube where a player had the nuts and was the last to act but checked it back after the river. He was given a penalty for this where he had to sit out for one orbit of the table. Is this an official rule of the game or just specific to that tournament? If it is a recognised rule, is there a universal punishment for this or is it tournament specific? I'd be really interested to know the answer if anyone can oblige. Thanks
Posted by FILIPSEBO

I don't understand what the rule infringement is did he check out of turn or just not bet the nuts?

Nuggy962

Hi 

Is no rules telling you you must bet when have the nuts on the river - but why anyone would not other than They didn't realise  would often lend people to assuming they are protecting the other player.  I think would be seen as very very odd and would be asked some probing questions if you did to do it live or online.

I guess sometimes people are desperate to show a huge hand? may think any bet will simply get folded and want to show off. Say board is KQJ10 diamonds, been a small ball pot and no bets made throughout, make royal flush on river 4 to flush and just want to show off the best hand in poker - pot is 2 BB and just want to show , clearly terrible play but.... Trying to think of reasons to not bet  

Live players will be better placed to answer fully - online you would face no penalty but may get asked questions, live , guess they can make a decision quicker and TD could decide that is a form of collusion and that's why issue a penalty ?  

All in all - I want to be sat on table with them if letting me off on river with nuts

FeelGroggy

In Response to Rules question:

I watched a video on Youtube where a player had the nuts and was the last to act but checked it back after the river. He was given a penalty for this where he had to sit out for one orbit of the table. Is this an official rule of the game or just specific to that tournament? If it is a recognised rule, is there a universal punishment for this or is it tournament specific? I'd be really interested to know the answer if anyone can oblige. Thanks
Posted by FILIPSEBO

I believe this is a universal rule in live games, if you check the nuts back it can be assumed your colluding/ softplaying.

This happened last UKPC I played. Some older gentleman checked back the rivered nut flush and the guy who lost the pot said to the dealer 'he can't check back the nuts'. The dealer brought a member of the floor over to investigate it, but everyone at the table asked for him to be let off and the floor guy gave him a warning. The penalty would have been 2 orbits out. The old guy then got the pot pushed to him and took it in confused while saying that he still didn't know what was going on. Luckilly for him the floor guy who was around was one of the nicer ones, most would have given the penalty.

FILIPSEBO

Thanks for the replies. It was a mistake by the player but I found it really interesting. I've seen this happen a few times online that I can remember but of course with no penalty. I've linked the video below in case anyone wants to see it.

The hand starts at 3:23 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o56Cu8OjC60

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: Rules question:

. I guess sometimes people are desperate to show a huge hand? may think any bet will simply get folded and want to show off. Say board is KQJ10 diamonds, been a small ball pot and no bets made throughout, make royal flush on river 4 to flush and just want to show off the best hand in poker - pot is 2 BB and just want to show , clearly terrible play but.... 
Posted by Nuggy962

Or they could just... you know, show their hand after everyone has folded?

Anyway, the rule kind of makes sense but is stupid at the same time. If someone is colluding/softplaying then surely a punishment of missing more than a few orbits is necessary? (I guess it's OK if it's late stage and blinds are really high but early on it's a nothing punishment. How long has the colluding/soft-play been going on? Will the TD appoint a dealer who's proficient at detecting colluding to keep an eye on him from now on in the tournament?

Tikay10

In "LIVE" Poker, this rule is applied almost universally, certainly in all well-run establishments. It's designed purpose is anti-collusion/soft play, though fair to say, it does not do that well.

The TDA Rules state...... 

 53-6. In certain situations, a player with the last right of action that 'checks' an indisputable wining hand, 'the nuts' will incur a penalty and may be found guilty of soft playing; that may result in 'disqualification.'

The Penalty is usually a time or Orbit based.  

In Online Poker the Rule does not exist, & is never applied.

craigcu12

Does it only apply to the absolute nuts or can the rule be applied with 2nd nuts and 3rd nuts. What if a player is out of position will he be allowed to ch. why anyone would do such a thing I don't know but you see AA being played very weakly all the time.

It can't really be a rule applied to online poker because players might have misclicked or got themselved timed out. A player might be investigated if it's getting done on a consistant basis.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Rules question:

Does it only apply to the absolute nuts or can the rule be applied with 2nd nuts and 3rd nuts. What if a player is out of position will he be allowed to ch. why anyone would do such a thing I don't know but you see AA being played very weakly all the time. It can't really be a rule applied to online poker because players might have misclicked or got themselved timed out. A player might be investigated if it's getting done on a consistant basis.
Posted by craigcu12

ONLY the absolute nuts, & ONLY last to act after the river.

Why would someone check the nuts? All sorts of reasons, but more often than not, it's accidental.
 
"Playing aces weakly" has nothing to do with this at all - we are talking ABSOLUTE STONE COLD NUTS ONLY, after the river, last to act.
 
The Rule has existed as long as I've been playing poker.

weecheez1

In Response to Re: Rules question:

Thanks for the replies. It was a mistake by the player but I found it really interesting. I've seen this happen a few times online that I can remember but of course with no penalty. I've linked the video below in case anyone wants to see it. The hand starts at 3:23 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o56Cu8OjC60
Posted by FILIPSEBO

I watched that it seemed like a genuine mistake I can see why there is rules in place but in this case I would let him off it was just a mistake 

craigcu12

In Response to Re: Rules question:

In Response to Re: Rules question : ONLY the absolute nuts, & ONLY last to act after the river. Why would someone check the nuts? All sorts of reasons, but more often than not, it's accidental.   "Playing aces weakly" has nothing to do with this at all - we are talking ABSOLUTE STONE COLD NUTS ONLY, after the river, last to act.   The Rule has existed as long as I've been playing poker.
Posted by Tikay10

I wasn't being serious with that part of my post just sarcastic.

ShaunyT

As Tikay has explained. 

I never knew about this rule until I was watching an EPT (few seasons back). It was a final table and I'm sure it was down to last 3, a guy had the nut flush on an unpaired board and accidentally checked, he was absolutely mortified. 

Anybody else know which EPT I'm on about? It was one of the ones on channel 4

FILIPSEBO

In Response to Re: Rules question:

As Tikay has explained.  I never knew about this rule until I was watching an EPT (few seasons back). It was a final table and I'm sure it was down to last 3, a guy had the nut flush on an unpaired board and accidentally checked, he was absolutely mortified.  Anybody else know which EPT I'm on about? It was one of the ones on channel 4
Posted by ShaunyT

I think it's the same hand you are referring to. I've linked the video further up the thread.

FCHD

Didn't Darvin Moon get caught out for this late in the WSOP ME that he had a deep run in?

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Rules question:

Didn't Darvin Moon get caught out for this late in the WSOP ME that he had a deep run in?
Posted by FCHD

He most certainly did.

Good to see you back, Barny, hope you are ok. There is a thread in The Rail about your website.

gerardirl

No fear of this happening toyou filipsebo as I've never seen you check a river, or a turn or a flop .

unknown_username

This happened to me once playing live at my 1st SPT a few years back.

Small stack was all-in & another player came along for the ride.....

I was holding AK off, I flopped the Ace & then Rivered the King - the problem was the pot was over 250K and I was so relieved to see that I had hit 2 pair, I hadn't actually noticed the River King had given me the Flush to the Ace.

When we turned them over the dealer promptly pointed out that I could have been penalised for soft playing the nuts, but because another player was all in & we were playing for a side pot he let me off.

Until that point, I still hadn't noticed I had rivered the A Flush - I apologised to the table & dealer.

Adrenaline does some strange things to you sometimes.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Rules question:

This happened to me once playing live at my 1st SPT a few years back. Small stack was all-in & another player came along for the ride..... I was holding AK off, I flopped the Ace & then Rivered the King - the problem was the pot was over 250K and I was so relieved to see that I had hit 2 pair, I hadn't actually noticed the River King had given me the Flush to the Ace. When we turned them over the dealer promptly pointed out that I could have been penalised for soft playing the nuts, but because another player was all in & we were playing for a side pot he let me off. Until that point, I still hadn't noticed I had rivered the A Flush - I apologised to the table & dealer. Adrenaline does some strange things to you sometimes.
Posted by POKERTREV

Exactly this. It's very easy to mock players for making mistakes, but it's very often the case that a surge of adrenalin clouds our judgement.

NoseyBonk

In Response to Re: Rules question:

In Response to Re: Rules question : Exactly this. It's very easy to mock players for making mistakes, but it's very often the case that a surge of adrenalin clouds our judgement.
Posted by Tikay10

In his book 'Every Hand Revealed' Gus Hansen beats himself up for something similiar - misreading his hand in the first place and very nearly mucked the winning hand (ending up with a flush IIRC). We all make mistakes.

Sir-Gary

Exactly this. It's very easy to mock players for making mistakes, but it's very often the case that a surge of adrenalin clouds our judgement.
Posted by Tikay10

So true

I remember a hand when from the preflop and flop action I was virtually sure my opponent had a specific pocket pair and I had a bigger pair, I bet the flop and I bet the turn when their set did not arrive. Imagine my horror as the river card gave them their set and they pushed all in. I folded like like lightning and my opponent showed the rivered set, It was only then that I realised that the turn card combined with the river card had given me the nut straight. So what is the ruling here ? fun only as I mucked the hand so only I know.

HiJoker

In Response to Re: Rules question:

Exactly this. It's very easy to mock players for making mistakes, but it's very often the case that a surge of adrenalin clouds our judgement. Posted by Tikay10 So true I remember a hand when from the preflop and flop action I was virtually sure my opponent had a specific pocket pair and I had a bigger pair, I bet the flop and I bet the turn when their set did not arrive. Imagine my horror as the river card gave them their set and they pushed all in. I folded like like lightning and my opponent showed the rivered set, It was only then that I realised that the turn card combined with the river card had given me the nut straight. So what is the ruling here ? fun only as I mucked the hand so only I know.
Posted by Sir-Gary

If you mucked your hand then it's as dead as the dodo I'm afraid.

CxE1

In Response to Re: Rules question:

Exactly this. It's very easy to mock players for making mistakes, but it's very often the case that a surge of adrenalin clouds our judgement. Posted by Tikay10 So true I remember a hand when from the preflop and flop action I was virtually sure my opponent had a specific pocket pair and I had a bigger pair, I bet the flop and I bet the turn when their set did not arrive. Imagine my horror as the river card gave them their set and they pushed all in. I folded like like lightning and my opponent showed the rivered set, It was only then that I realised that the turn card combined with the river card had given me the nut straight. So what is the ruling here ? fun only as I mucked the hand so only I know.
Posted by Sir-Gary

If your cards had been seen your in breach of this rule and could have been punished.

Another interesting question is what if you showed your cards, someone points out your mistake and everyone has a laugh. Dealer sees it as a mistake and moves on but a player asks for rule to be enforced.What happens next ?