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The never ending down swing

edited May 2016 in Poker Chat

How do some of you heads up players deal with what seems like a never ending downswing? it feels like I am losing at a 1 to 4 ratio at present & I genuinely dont know if I want to play poker anymore (although I am sure I would be fine after a break)

You all know the type of runs where every qq is snaped of vs a2 or when you get you opponent down to there last 30 chips only for them to win the next 10 flips...

Im quite a level headed person and realise this can happen to anybody - but emotionally I am not quite sure I am cut out for this anymore.

Long story short... any tips?

Also before suggesting a change of format I love MTTs but dont have the time + I couldnt do that to my other half... 6 max cash I am pretty average at and not even sure I am a winner - HU cash is my favourite game and possibly my best but action is so hard to come by....

Very frustrating game and easy to feel like everything is against you hence why I try to be fairly kind to the rigged new player posts.

But for those that have been through this how have you kept motivated?

Comments

  • edited May 2016
    Tried the 4 card game?
    Freshened things up for me.
    GL
  • edited May 2016
    In Response to Re: The never ending down swing:
    Tried the 4 card game? Freshened things up for me. GL
    Posted by VespaPX

    Yeah I enjoy omaha but at present im playing on a protected bankroll and I find it hard to focus below 50PLO - so probably not the best thing for me (Right now)

    Just to give you an idea of what is happening this is my last game... problem is it has been happening for the last 2/3 weeks maybe.... the fact I am losing i can deal with its a natural part of the game... what is hurting me the most is the fact that I am fast falling out of love with the game.

    Not sure how to post HH not sure if anyone can help -

    Hand History #1038714685

    Hand History #1038714359

    Hand History #1038707126


    Its really frustating to the point I dont even have to question that its going to come anymore....

    Is it time to move on to pastures new?

    I really enjoy fantasy football betting and appear to be doing ok so far so maybe that is an option or just leave betting behind?

    I can hand on heart say this is not financial in the slightest - just mentally draining
  • edited May 2016
    Cant help you with the heads up problem, i used to grind them but they affected my mood too much to the point it wasnt +ev to play them for any sustained period of time... 

    you mention fantasy football betting.. im guessing you use draftkings?? there seems to be a ton of money to be made in that right now. Its huge in the US so i reckon it will be just as big here within 5 years so its always good to be ahead of the curve. 
  • edited May 2016
    Mondogoal currently the rake is 10% but definitely beatable. Problem is it is only +EV to stick to leagues you know which for me is just England so profit can be slow

  • edited May 2016
    you dont have a sample big enough at any buyin to draw conclusions on beating / losing at any level.

    have a play with a software called swongsim [www.dropbox.com/s/ukpadqy24se12th/SwongSim.exe?dl=0]

    it will be able to tell you about the swings you can expect and confidence levels of EV.

    two problems with sky.

    1 they dont allow tracking software so you can never see how well or poorly you are running. real $$ reults are the last to converge so it will take a long time to see if your results are actually due to runbad / rungood

    2 the rake is very high. esp in hypers. you shouldnt play regs unless it is to gain a lobby or you fancy playing for lolz. you wont beat the rake long term and you real ££ variance will be extreme.

    200-300 games samples with high rake against competent players will see a lot of swings and swongs.

    variance is a function of ev roi.

    the higher you expected evroi the less variance you will suffer.

    the only sure fire way to reduce variance to to improve your edge over the field.



    if you want to send a 5-10 minute video of your grind to me 1-2 tabling i'd be happy to have a look and see if any tilt / obvious leaks are there.

  • edited May 2016
    In Response to Re: The never ending down swing:
    you dont have a sample big enough at any buyin to draw conclusions on beating / losing at any level. have a play with a software called swongsim [ www.dropbox.com/s/ukpadqy24se12th/SwongSim.exe?dl=0 ] it will be able to tell you about the swings you can expect and confidence levels of EV. two problems with sky. 1 they dont allow tracking software so you can never see how well or poorly you are running. real $$ reults are the last to converge so it will take a long time to see if your results are actually due to runbad / rungood 2 the rake is very high. esp in hypers. you shouldnt play regs unless it is to gain a lobby or you fancy playing for lolz. you wont beat the rake long term and you real ££ variance will be extreme. 200-300 games samples with high rake against competent players will see a lot of swings and swongs. variance is a function of ev roi. the higher you expected evroi the less variance you will suffer. the only sure fire way to reduce variance to to improve your edge over the field. if you want to send a 5-10 minute video of your grind to me 1-2 tabling i'd be happy to have a look and see if any tilt / obvious leaks are there.
    Posted by TeddyBloat
    Thanks for the link - I have a 18k sample across sites with 4% roi total I have only been playing sky a relatively small amount of time in comparison to the 12/14 years I have been playing (around 1/2 years on sky) is that not a large enough sample?

    I love playing regs and always will - some regs are definitely beatable with rake infact some regs are more exploitable against certain styles than fish in my oppinion.

    I appreciate the offer of a video but have no recording software I dont even have SKYPE. Iv p;ayed long enough to know it is run bad .... but I have never known anything like this it is pure brutal - game after game finding good spots to lose as a 3to1 or 4to1 favourite
  • edited May 2016
    Yeah if you have an 18k sample @ 4% then I might be best sending you a few videos.

    Just off a quick scope search your most common villains at 20's are nearly all good to very good. You cant expect anything othrer than lolswings there.

    If you can beat player for more than the rake on sky long term then I'd argue they maybe aren't a reg. also, your win rate v regs won't be stable as they will adjust.

    Always assume it's something other than run bad. We remember our beats. Complacency is a hard villain to beat.


  • edited May 2016
    Lastly there have been many radical shifts in 'standard' play for regs over the last few years.

    Widespread access to gto  solvers has pushed understanding further.

    It also means regs are playjng a much less exploitable strategy.
     
    Not sure if the regs here are using things like pio solver, but even if they aren't are just studying a tonne, it means you have to work extremely hard off the table to have any chance of beating the rake here.

  • edited May 2016
    Sorry to hear not working out at present - You are clearly a very good HU player, where all my notes from you came from and would always avoid you on the felt

    I dropped from hypers last year to speed this year - I find that the speed structure gives you a bigger edge vs the every day rec and fill up just as quick (All be it I am a very low stakes player sticking to £5 max and have no sample size to speak of)

    I am a pure rec, but study the game one day a week, do hand reading and play with flopzilla and itimizer to try build up a bank of info for in game play.  If falling out of love with the game (I did this about 18 months ago) I self exclued all my accounts for 30 days and just did other stuff like gym, read, work a bit more in the day job.

    I found the complete break was perfect - was tempted to jump straight back in on day 3 - even tried to cancel but by end of week all the negativity and bad beats bla bla bla had become a distant memory.  Spent 3 weeks enjoying everything other than any betting and by time I was able to reopen accounts - was refreshed and raring to go.  

    I know I am nt a reg and have no real experience of high volume / grinding.  You will, i am sure, come out other side and show good roi again, but think it is very wise to take stock and think about oter avenues

    Gl, hope you get through it.


  • edited May 2016
    Hi Itover4u,

    I don't have a solution to your problem, BUT am curious as to WHY you play poker..

    1. To make money, or 

    2. To have fun

    P.S. BTW DEF NOT criticising just curious. 
  • edited May 2016
    Hope things turn around for you!

    All I would suggest is to try playing something different for a week or so, maybe 6 max SNG's or any other game just for the change of scenery. I find playing a variety of games saves me getting bored and frustrated with the game. It also helps to develop other areas of our overall game.

    I also find watching training videos can be good, even if you don't think you are learning a ton. The break while you watch them helps and you start to naturally analyse the play in the training videos, consider other lines of play and spot things they or you could tweak etc. This usually helps get my interest back and before long I am itching to get back to the felt.

    Good luck!
  • edited May 2016
    Hey mate, I played loads of hypers a couple weeks ago when I was going for the vegas promo - and believe me, I know what you're going through. I had a couple days when I just ran insanely bad - I almost never tilt these days after being a huge tilter in the past but it was incredibly difficult to try and keep a level head - I was getting so angry at what was happening and yet couldn't afford to take a break if I wanted to win the promotion.

    Think the best way is where possible just to take a break from that format. I decided to play turbo DYM's instead for the promotion during the 2nd week as the variance in them is much less/plus a bigger edge.

    As far as playing reg's go, there's possibly 1 reg that you could probably beat the rake against but the rest of them are strong enough where it's not going to be +ev to play them.

    Hypers in general I've run terrible in them over my lifetime of playing them, which is really annoying as it's a format of poker I like and feel I'm pretty good at. Thankfully, the other format I'm good is omaha - and I run like the complete opposite. Seem to always run insanely well!
  • edited May 2016
    Husng's, even hypers, are very low variance long term.

    Eg, A player with an evroi of 2% will only be breakeven or worse around 20% of the time over a 2k sample on sky.

    If you are breakeven over a number of years  or 2-3k+ games then it is extremely likely that you need to work on some aspects of your game.

    **edit dyms require a similar itm to beat rake as husngs - slightly higher in dyms due to increaed rake - so if turbbo dyms are lower variance it is because there is more edge to be found, DUCY?**
  • edited May 2016
    Poker can be so cruel but the luck element addsto the excitement of it.

    It will turn for you soon Im sure.

    Ger
  • edited May 2016
    In Response to Re: The never ending down swing:
    Husng's, even hypers, are very low variance long term. Eg, A player with an evroi of 2% will only be breakeven or worse around 20% of the time over a 2k sample on sky. If you are breakeven over a number of years  or 2-3k+ games then it is extremely likely that you need to work on some aspects of your game.
    Posted by TeddyBloat
    When I was doing the promo I was playing a very large % against reg's - 2 I thought I had a 2/3% edge on (so only just covering rake) and 3 others I was probably + or - 1-2% at most against. So I def. wouldn't have much of a +roi against these in long run. Not sure exactly how many games I played - probably around 1000-1300 with 90% being against reg's. 

    I think I dropped around £2k in total playing them over the 2 weeks (although RB in just the hypers was probably worth £1k)

    I've played hypers 3 times for promo's and 2/3 times I've ran really bad in them. I know my game is pretty decent so pretty confident it is down mostly to just running bad, but maybe there are some aspects I could improve.

    I think I'm pretty decent at recognizing when I'm running good/ok/bad in various formats and know that in Omaha as I said I'm probably well above my true win-rate just because I run so good at it the majority of the time. I've probably only had 2/3 sessions where I've ran terrible since I've started playing. (out of hundreds of sessions)



  • edited May 2016
    In Response to Re: The never ending down swing:
    Hi Itover4u, I don't have a solution to your problem, BUT am curious as to WHY you play poker.. 1. To make money, or  2. To have fun P.S. BTW DEF NOT criticising just curious. 
    Posted by Glenelg

    Both I would say - Poker has bought me a lot of decent things such as my car paid for in cash and decorating my house - the money has also allowed me to buy more gifts for the girlfriend which keeps her tolerant of me playing 6 out of 7 days each week.

    I do love playing poker also, but I also feel often I am playing for the sake of playing rather than wanting to play... especially recently.


  • edited May 2016
    In Response to Re: The never ending down swing:
    Sorry to hear not working out at present - You are clearly a very good HU player, where all my notes from you came from and would always avoid you on the felt I dropped from hypers last year to speed this year - I find that the speed structure gives you a bigger edge vs the every day rec and fill up just as quick (All be it I am a very low stakes player sticking to £5 max and have no sample size to speak of) I am a pure rec, but study the game one day a week, do hand reading and play with flopzilla and itimizer to try build up a bank of info for in game play.  If falling out of love with the game (I did this about 18 months ago) I self exclued all my accounts for 30 days and just did other stuff like gym, read, work a bit more in the day job. I found the complete break was perfect - was tempted to jump straight back in on day 3 - even tried to cancel but by end of week all the negativity and bad beats bla bla bla had become a distant memory.  Spent 3 weeks enjoying everything other than any betting and by time I was able to reopen accounts - was refreshed and raring to go.   I know I am nt a reg and have no real experience of high volume / grinding.  You will, i am sure, come out other side and show good roi again, but think it is very wise to take stock and think about oter avenues Gl, hope you get through it.
    Posted by Nuggy962

    Good advice a break is probably the most likely option and re-asess at the end of it.

    I Have tried to take breaks before and often find myself getting over anxious to play past the 24 hour mark - Apart from September when the new Fifa release get a good blast
  • edited May 2016
    In Response to Re: The never ending down swing:
    Hope things turn around for you! All I would suggest is to try playing something different for a week or so, maybe 6 max SNG's or any other game just for the change of scenery. I find playing a variety of games saves me getting bored and frustrated with the game. It also helps to develop other areas of our overall game. I also find watching training videos can be good, even if you don't think you are learning a ton. The break while you watch them helps and you start to naturally analyse the play in the training videos, consider other lines of play and spot things they or you could tweak etc. This usually helps get my interest back and before long I am itching to get back to the felt. Good luck!
    Posted by markycash

    Yes 100% I am the same watching videos always helps me... and usually diectly after that things get better...

    This time however I still feel I am playing well just spot after spot I am getting beat.

    In my life I cant imagine how many times people have been down to a chip & a chair only to win every all in from there on in.... frustating.

    I would love to have some software to calculate how far off the standard deviation the last few weeks have been.

    If you do see me at the tables... you should jump on as it is free cash at present :)


    Also your point about 6 max (along with Ivanovich) is a good one as I actually seem to be running the opposite over there 
  • edited May 2016
    the best thing you can do is try to avoid carrying baggage over. any sense of entitlement, injustice or feeling that things are against you personally isnt going to help you play well - quite the opposite.

    the only thing that should matter is the decision in front of you.

    you can take practical steps lower variance in two ways:

    1 improve your decision making. variance is a function of EV. the further you are from breakeven the fewer swings you will suffer [note this works both ways. terrible players suffer less variance than breakeven players also].


    2 take lower variance lines. when the EV's of two lines are close take the line with the least chip stack variance. two canonical examples from HUSNG's:

    + limping a hand instead of minraising. very few hands strictly prefer minraising over limping - the EV's are super close - so introduce more limping,

    + check calling draws or check raising them - again EV's run super close in a lot of spots. but one is much higher variance than the other.

    against recreationals reducing variance is so amazingly good you can actually sacrifice some small amount of chip EV whilst actually improving your winrate and reducing variance. the idea is once the rec buys in he is locked into a game. we want to play as many hands as possible against him. we can pass on small edges as we know that our edge in subsequent hands will more than make up for it [simplified but the maths really works for this].

    the added bonus here is that not only do we reduce variance but we also increase winrate, which further reduces variance. wins all round.

    focus on the decision in front of you

    make the best decision you can

    when lines are close take the one with lower chipstack variance

    especially v recreationals [we can actually pass up some small amount of EV in high variance spots v recs].
  • edited May 2016

    good thoughts, teddy, as always.



  • edited May 2016
    In Response to Re: The never ending down swing:
    good thoughts, teddy, as always.
    Posted by aussie09
    Yes agreed thanks for that post Teddy much appreciated
  • edited May 2016
    genuinely never ending at the moment - its so bad at least I manged to laugh tonight.
    In the main and mini
    aa loses to kk on river (chips always going in but the was an air of inevitability)
    99 loses to 44 on river (major aggro shoves UTG I have seen earlier shoves with 67 89 etc 20bbs deep) I snap call ... I snap cry
    almost simultaneously... and again I stress it is not these hands but I cant remember an overpair holding for a week.... my eyes are bleeding :/
    Somehow still hanging around in the main
  • edited May 2016
    Im almost determined to keep this thread going so that when it finally ends I can come out the other side and have this as a reminder when times get tough again

    I am seriously thinking about switching to MTTs though as they are my better game and I seem to get far less irritated.

    Also anybody know how matt bates got on in the SCOOP?
  • edited May 2016
    I get these bad runs and downswings all the time and start getting all messed up. Switiching over to a different form whether it be  switching from cash to sit and gos or MTT, diverting my main game to a different site  where the table dynamics are different table dynamics or even playing poker in a different way to texas hold'em. Doing this can allow me to take a break but still continue as a whole new type of game will be into me.

    Cash tables themselves are normally where I'll play but throughout this month it's a case of DYMs and MTTs.
  • edited May 2016
    Downswings are an inevitable part of playing poker. Try looking at the "worst 100/500" streaks for any player on sharkscope, and you will see what I mean. However, it is in the very nature of a swing that it does turn round.

    If I may add to the sensible advice given by others:-

    1. Never gamble what you cannot afford to lose-apart from the obvious, you will play sub-optimally
    2. Following on from 1, when I hit a downswing I move down in buy-ins for MTTs to regain confidence.

    GLGL

    Phil
  • edited May 2016
    so just to update the downswing continues and is not getting any less brutal more so infact.... Still big pairs get beat (in the crucial pots) and it just feels like a sense of doom every game im playing.

    A key example I am sitting on a 5.5k stack with 4 players left in a DYM... blinds 100/200.... fast forward to 400/800 the short stack have survived no less than 8 all ins and I am now in a situation of must call when in the bb... 5/10 hands later im out in 3rd.... things are just not happening for me at all.

    I have dropped down stakes just to get some confidence back thinking maybe I have developed leaks but it has been worse... I know when I am playing bad and at the moment I feel on top of my game but my all in EV must be crazy.

    Again this is not a rant but the game feels brutal and I may have to put sky to bed for a little while as it is only happening here at present... im not superstitious and I do not think anything is going on I just think I need to leave for a while for my own sanity.

    Not sure when I will be back but I guess not to long as this is certaibly my favourite grinding place because of the guys on here + all the great promo's etc Sky do.... I do think they need more recognition for trying to run the site the right way with a lot of the players in mind... unlike a couple of other sites I dont need to mention.


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