A little help from the MTT kings please...

Itsover4u

Evening, a little frustrated at the moment. Night after night going deep into MTTs last 20 or so only to bust....

Tonights though beats them all.

Question is, is it an unlucky spots or could I play it different.... I feel it is bad luck but maybe I am making the wrong plays.

Both hands are to decent players and in the first hand I am chip leader with 20 left -

Hand 1 blinds 4k 8k my stack is 290k opponent 149,711 and we are 5 handed

UTG folds 

I hold 99 UTG + 1 and make it 19.5k

Button folds

Small blind shoves for 118k

bb folds

.....What is the correct play here?

Hand 2 -

Utg fold

Utg + 1 min raise to 16k

I 3 bet to 37.5k

fold

fold

Initial raise shoves for 140k leaving me with around 15 behind

Did this hand slightly different... but what would your calling range be in this spot?

My image upto this hand would be aggresive at this particular table and I was running over the table.

ANy help greatly appreciated

RLT16

im no mtt king but will chip in anyway.

hand one i think is very player dependant, but i think i lean towards calling, it is only a 15BB shove. you will be flipping here alot of the time, and have them dominated sometimes to. but it also depends on your overall feel for the table, do u feel you have an edge over the other placers and will find better spots?

hand to i cant see your cards anywhere or is it 99 again?

StayOrGo

In Response to A little help from the MTT kings please...:

Evening, a little frustrated at the moment. Night after night going deep into MTTs last 20 or so only to bust.... Tonights though beats them all. Question is, is it an unlucky spots or could I play it different.... I feel it is bad luck but maybe I am making the wrong plays. Both hands are to decent players and in the first hand I am chip leader with 20 left - Hand 1 blinds 4k 8k my stack is 290k opponent 149,711 and we are 5 handed UTG folds  I hold 99 UTG + 1 and make it 19.5k Button folds Small blind shoves for 118k bb folds .....What is the correct play here? Hand 2 - Utg fold Utg + 1 min raise to 16k I 3 bet to 37.5k fold fold Initial raise shoves for 140k leaving me with around 15 behind Did this hand slightly different... but what would your calling range be in this spot? My image upto this hand would be aggresive at this particular table and I was running over the table. ANy help greatly appreciated
Posted by Itsover4u

Hi O4U. Also hardly an MTT king, but anyway.

My thoughts on hand one are, that it is depends upon opponent "style." (Also you say your opponent has 149,711 and shoves for 118k, so bit confused)

On the whole, I would probably call 118K, as he has < 15 BB's and you are probably ahead of his range, but it's close. (Very often a race). Also FWIW, when the blinds are this big, personally I think a min raise is fine, so I would open for 16k, which does allow you to fold easier if he was a tight player.

Regarding hand two. I can't really answer yet. Your 3bet size needs discussion. Is this your standard 3bet size? Or was it this size because of other stack sizes. The point I would make, is that when you 3bet here, you should know "AT THAT POINT"  whether or not you are calling if the original raiser shoves. Which may be why you made it what you did, to allow yourself to fold. Your raise size suggests to me, either a marginal holding, so you can fold, or a monstor and you don't want to lose your customer.

I guess if you had AA or KK, you wouldn't be asking this question. So to me, as played, my calling range would probably be, TT+, AQ+

Because of the original raiser's stack size, I would fold hands that I might re-rasie with if we were deeper.

So for example, I would fold to his initial opening bet anything worse than 88 or AQ. Whereas if we were both very deep, I'd be 3bet/folding, AJ, KQ, 77, 88, 99. Maybe slightly wider if he was aggro, bringing in AT, KJs, 55 and 66. Never just calling pre, in this spot, with anything at this stage. So you are right to either 3bet or fold imo.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Graham

Itsover4u

In Response to Re: A little help from the MTT kings please...:

In Response to A little help from the MTT kings please... : Hi O4U. Also hardly an MTT king, but anyway. My thoughts on hand one are, that it is depends upon opponent "style." (Also you say your opponent has 149,711 and shoves for 118k, so bit confused) On the whole, I would probably call 118K, as he has < 15 BB's and you are probably ahead of his range, but it's close. (Very often a race). Also FWIW, when the blinds are this big, personally I think a min raise is fine, so I would open for 16k, which does allow you to fold easier if he was a tight player. Regarding hand two. I can't really answer yet. Your 3bet size needs discussion. Is this your standard 3bet size? Or was it this size because of other stack sizes. The point I would make, is that when you 3bet here, you should know "AT THAT POINT"  whether or not you are calling if the original raiser shoves. Which may be why you made it what you did, to allow yourself to fold. Your raise size suggests to me, either a marginal holding, so you can fold, or a monstor and you don't want to lose your customer. I guess if you had AA or KK, you wouldn't be asking this question. So to me, as played, my calling range would probably be, TT+, AQ+ Because of the original raiser's stack size, I would fold hands that I might re-rasie with if we were deeper. So for example, I would fold to his initial opening bet anything worse than 88 or AQ. Whereas if we were both very deep, I'd be 3bet/folding, AJ, KQ, 77, 88, 99. Maybe slightly wider if he was aggro, bringing in AT, KJs, 55 and 66. Never just calling pre, in this spot, with anything at this stage. So you are right to either 3bet or fold imo. Hope this helps. Cheers, Graham
Posted by StayOrGo

I had 10 10 and called in the second hand it was never my intention to fold - but after I wondered if this was a leak. It felt like folding was pretty terrible but I needed to check my line. 

The players were active opening pre but were not 3 betting or shove 3 betting.

the part that intrests me the most about your post is folding pre below AQ & 88 - I always find these particuarly difficult spots when deep.

not sure the results matter but for those interested I was up against qq both times.

Itsover4u

In Response to Re: A little help from the MTT kings please...:

im no mtt king but will chip in anyway. hand one i think is very player dependant, but i think i lean towards calling, it is only a 15BB shove. you will be flipping here alot of the time, and have them dominated sometimes to. but it also depends on your overall feel for the table, do u feel you have an edge over the other placers and will find better spots? hand to i cant see your cards anywhere or is it 99 again?
Posted by RLT16

It was the turbo main so the edge I felt was fairly small as most were shove or fold. second hand I had 10 10

oynutter

I would just say that playing near the bubble, you can fold 99 in that spot. keeping your chip lead is probably more important than playing aggressively here imo, I am reminded of something Julian thew said at Dublin spt--- "you don't have to call in every +EV spot" --- That was his answer to a question about what tip would he give to an mtt beginner -- clever chap, and very nice fella too !

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: A little help from the MTT kings please...:

In Response to Re: A little help from the MTT kings please... : I had 10 10 and called in the second hand it was never my intention to fold - but after I wondered if this was a leak. It felt like folding was pretty terrible but I needed to check my line.  The players were active opening pre but were not 3 betting or shove 3 betting. the part that intrests me the most about your post is folding pre below AQ & 88 - I always find these particuarly difficult spots when deep. not sure the results matter but for those interested I was up against qq both times.
Posted by Itsover4u

I would have played TT the same as you in this spot with the exception of the 3 bet size. I would make it something like 44K, with an intention to call his all in, but folding if a cold 4bet came in from someone else that had me covered.

So I think you were just unlucky here. With the stack sizes it's a cooler imo.

Regarding playing hands like AJ, 66, 77 when deep (but not deep enough to set mine). My thought's are like this. If the raise comes from early table position and the player is tight, I fold the fore mentioned hands. If he is aggro, or the raise comes from the CutOff or Button, I play them as a 3bet/fold. The important thing imo, is not to call pre with marginal hands at this stage of an MTT. 3bet or fold is the message I'm trying to get across. So it's important to check that the stack sizes involved, ligitimately allow you to 3bet/fold.

Too many times, I've made a mistake, say with AJ, when I 3bet and realised I had to call a shove. Giving my opponent an easy double up.

So play the hand according to the effective stack size of you and the initial raiser.

As I said before, if the initial raiser had say 18BB's and opened with 2.5x, I'd be inclined to just fold AJ.

If he (and I) had > 28BB's, I'd 3bet/fold AJ, most of the time.

If he had less than 10BB's and shoved, I'd call.

Hope this helps. Seems like you just got coolered at some key stages. Hope it turns around for you. :=) #KEEP_THE_FAITH

Cheers,

G

IDONKCALLU

imo i think 99 is a call hand 1  hand 2 easy fold

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: A little help from the MTT kings please...:

imo i think 99 is a call hand 1  hand 2 easy fold
Posted by IDONKCALLU

HI IDONKCALLU, interesting that you think Hand 2, TT, is an "easy" fold, and I feel it's a "definate" call. I think the "truth" may be in-between. So perhaps it's a call against some opponents and a fold against others.

Let's suppose that I am Itsover4u's opponent in the 2nd hand. It's the Turbo Open, so a gambly type of MTT suiting aggressive pre flop players imo. I raise UTG+1 (incidentally that's the CutOff five handed) get re-raised by an aggressive opponent, and decided to shove my 18BB's. I would suggest my range to be AJs+, AQ+, 66+. Against this range, and with the money already in, a call with TT seems just about right.

So with minimal information about Itsover4u's opponent's style, I prefer the call, but I respect your opinion.

Cheers,

G

F_Ivanovic

I think a typical SB jamming range based on pop tendencies in hand 1 is going to be something like ATs+, AQo+, 77+ and KQs - against that range we have 45.7% equity and need just 40% equity - so I think we have to make the call. With reads that villain is shoving tigher it can be a fold though.

Hand 2 I would agree with StayOrGo in that I don't think we should be 3b with any hand that we intend to fold to a shove. However, I'm not sure I would be 3b this hand in the first place since I don't think we can GII profitably against a typical UTG opening range. As such, I would just cold call I think and play some poker. Typically my 3b GII range would be AK and JJ+.

shakinaces

In Response to Re: A little help from the MTT kings please...:

I think a typical SB jamming range based on pop tendencies in hand 1 is going to be something like ATs+, AQo+, 77+ and KQs - against that range we have 45.7% equity and need just 40% equity - so I think we have to make the call. With reads that villain is shoving tigher it can be a fold though. Hand 2 I would agree with StayOrGo in that I don't think we should be 3b with any hand that we intend to fold to a shove. However, I'm not sure I would be 3b this hand in the first place since I don't think we can GII profitably against a typical UTG opening range. As such, I would just cold call I think and play some poker. Typically my 3b GII range would be AK and JJ+.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Sorry, poker novice Q here - does the bit in bold mean to suggest that there is deemed to be no value in 3bet bluffs vs unknowns when you reach this stage of the tournament?  Obv player specific spots may still make it a viable play.

To reverse then, if facing any non-all-in 3b (with stacks below c. 25-35bb) our standard play is normally going to be to fold all but the top of our range?

This part of MTT confuses more than any other. 100bb+ isn't far removed from cash games, <15bb and it's just getting a good feel for shove/call ranges, the bits in between I feel utterly clueless most of the time!

F_Ivanovic

I meant to say any value hand. There's definitely room to be 3b bluffing in this spot - although my standard w/o any reads is to only have very few bluffs here - A5s and A4s would tend to be in my bluff range.

Itsover4u

In Response to Re: A little help from the MTT kings please...:

I meant to say any value hand. There's definitely room to be 3b bluffing in this spot - although my standard w/o any reads is to only have very few bluffs here - A5s and A4s would tend to be in my bluff range.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Would you not rather have 910s 89s 10js as a 3b bluffing range? I find it a much easier spot if you get flatted - I despise 3b bluffing with Ax hands

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: A little help from the MTT kings please...:

In Response to Re: A little help from the MTT kings please... : Would you not rather have 910s 89s 10js as a 3b bluffing range? I find it a much easier spot if you get flatted - I despise 3b bluffing with Ax hands
Posted by Itsover4u

I like to flat these strong suited connectors personally as opposed to turning them into a bluff. At this stack depth and OOP I think the OR is mostly going to 4b or fold, so our actual hand doesn't matter all that much. Having an A though reduces the likelyhood that villain has a strong Ax and more likely he has smaller pairs or high broadway that are put into a tough spot. If they do decide to flat, then a 1/3 PSB on all the dry boards should show a great deal of profit - and again, our cards are largely irrelevant in that spot.

I'm no expert in MTT's at all though, so maybe I'm in the wrong 3b low suited Ax here - but it seems to work out OK for me. 

MrWh1te

Hand 1, after your raise you have to consider what he is on.

I think most of the time you are either flipping or way behind, making the call a poor choice.  It would be fine to lay down.

The second hand is pretty similar.  You have raised and someone has come back over you. You don't want a rep for laying down after raising unless you are exploiting that with monsters, so I think it is a fold also, but my gut feeling is to call.

Hand one - fold
hand two - call or fold is ok

Just my opinion but I suck lol