----Highs Lows & Scoopio's---- whats the approach to an 800/1600 blind level

Phantom66

@EvilPingu

Great post.

Odds are indeed below 55% on the shove vs Tikays any 4. 54% (as per my earlier post) taken from http://www.propokertools.com/simulations

We are also taking a 32% gamble (192.5/600) of being bust in this hand, versus 0% if we fold.

Hope the link is ok (it's free and unbranded)

Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation ? 
600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
Ac5c6c8d	54.03%	236,456	295,284	10,708	235,840	14,891
****	45.97%	192,514	294,008	10,708	73,217	14,891

Tikay10

In Response to Re: ----Highs Lows & Scoopio's----:

Re: 800/1600 hand. Worked out the stacks at the start of the hand, and Pompey only has 780 chips. If you shove, you're probably ahead vs any 4 that Tikay has to call off with, but it's gonna be far better to not take that situation and ladder. If you fold, it's reasonable to assume Tikay gets a walk, which is the most likely outcome in the hand (If mmmchips shoves, it's almost certainly a mistake anyway, and that's good for us). Pompey will be in the BB next hand for less than Tikay's SB, so you cash whenever Tikay scoops because you and mmmchips should fold close to everything, if not absolutely everything, in that situation with BB all in. I would not be at all surprised if folding any 4 is optimal for both of you. Whenever he wins half of the pot or less, he's going to be all in from the SB on your BB the hand after, so when Tikay doesn't scoop, you cash if you scoop, assuming both opponents in the hand choose to fold. Tikay would be justified in limping some ultra strong stuff from UTG here I suspect, but mmmchips should (if he's playing correctly) fold any 4, and the most likely outcome is you flip vs all in SB. If the SB survives that a second time, we can still fold the SB (even if he scoops) and have Pompey flipping against Tikay again before we have to stick our last few hundred chips in in the BB again. Essentially, folding gives us plenty of opportunities for one of our opponents to get scooped against (At least 2, often more) before we have to put our tournament life at risk, whereas by shoving, we put our own tournament life at risk for very little gain.  Yes, we'll win more chips than we lose, but that's irrelevant because we'll also lose more money than we win, because the chips we lose are worth so much more money than the chips we win. Our tournament life is way, way more valuable than the few hundred chips we may or may not win in this type of game. Also, given how in PLO8, equities are so much closer, we're almost always better off folding way more than you'd expect. If you compare with an identical spot but in NLHE, if we get Aces, we are no less than 77% regardless of our opponent's holding (Excluding AA). Therefore, in NLHE, we can shove AA/KK/Possibly QQ here and it's absolutely fine, because the huge equity advantage we have vs our opponent's any 2 cards outweights the equity we need in the hand in order to put our tournament life at risk in a DYM. In PLO8, even premiums (AA23ds, A234ds etc) are never going to have that kind of advantage over an opponent with 4 random cards. Idk how much equity Ac 6c 5c 8d has vs Tikay's any 4 that he has to call with, but if it's anything more than 55%, I'll be shocked. We're going to be haemorrhaging money shoving this particular hand, and I wouldn't be surprised if we're haemorrhaging money with any 4 cards by doing anything besides folding. Cliffs: It's a trivial fold because of ICM in DYMs, combined with how equities in PLO8 are much closer than in other Poker variants. The value of our stack isn't linear in the same way that it would be at a cash table. Scooping, while useful, doesn't make an enormous difference to us, whereas getting scooped against is a disaster. Similarly, getting quartered is far worse for us than winning 3/4s is beneficial to us.
Posted by EvilPingu

Good analysis by Percy Pingu.

PLO8 DYM-ers should copy that onto a Post It note & stick it to the computer screen.

Need to be a pretty big Post It note, mind.

Chris_Mc

Some great feedback, thanks.

was just curious what to do, at that stage with 4 left and only having 7.5BB between the 4 of us was tough to decide what to do, especially with that time bar, i swear it gets quicker lol.

judging from the feedback i shouldve folded, but just didnt know what to do at that stage with the blinds so high.

think it was over the next hand and was lucky to cash so mabye next time if i end up in the same position just think it through a liite better.

Phantom66

In Response to Re: ----Highs Lows & Scoopio's---- whats the approach to an 800/1600 blind level:

Some great feedback, thanks. was just curious what to do, at that stage with 4 left and only having 7.5BB between the 4 of us was tough to decide what to do, especially with that time bar, i swear it gets quicker lol. judging from the feedback i shouldve folded, but just didnt know what to do at that stage with the blinds so high. think it was over the next hand and was lucky to cash so mabye next time if i end up in the same position just think it through a liite better.
Posted by Chris_Mc

I think you deserve some credit for posting the hand. After all you won the hand and cashed the dym and could easily have forgotten all about it and assumed the play was correct.

However you obviously had second thoughts, questionned your action and posted here for feedback.

Shows a great attitude to the game. 

Tikay10

In Response to Re: ----Highs Lows & Scoopio's---- whats the approach to an 800/1600 blind level:

In Response to Re: ----Highs Lows & Scoopio's---- whats the approach to an 800/1600 blind level : I think you deserve some credit for posting the hand. After all you won the hand and cashed the dym and could easily have forgotten all about it and assumed the play was correct. However you obviously had second thoughts, questionned your action and posted here for feedback. Shows a great attitude to the game. 
Posted by Phantom66

Agree 100%.

We know that ranges in O8 run really close, & we know that when it gets 4 handed at silly Blinds, & we are sitting with 7 Bigs between 4 of us, it is a bit of a lottery, but.......

Correct play in these spots is definitely part of the skill in these things, & the edge we can gain. And all those little edges add up.
 
Kudos to Percy for his thorough analysis, too.