Explaining the "Stop & Go".

Tikay10

I thought the "Squeeze Play" thread was really useful & informative, many thanks to all those who contributed. I was playing a session last night & many of the players mentioned it, or typed "Squeeze play" when someone tried it, so it's clear many players read the thread.

So today, we'll see if we can get some explanations & examples of the Stop & Go.

At it's simplest, in "level one, ABC thinking" it means we call a raise (usually from the blinds) with the sole intention of jamming any flop. (UNLESS we happen to hit it hard).
 
It tends to work well when we are relatively short stacked, & is quite a potent weapon as, generally, most of the time the villain will miss the flop. Of course, if he has a monster, he'll call anyway, but if he has, say, A-K, & we jam on a flop of 7-8-9, it's not an easy call for him.
 
It works much better in NLH than PLO8, as in the latter, with balanced hands, they can call the majority of flops unless they are on the low & the flop comes High High High. It works, too, in PLO, but again, not as well as in NLH. Also, in PLO & PLO8 they are both Pot Limit, so we can't jam, & they generally have the odds to call.
 
OK, over to you, contributions welcome from everyone.
 
If this one goes as well as yesterday, we'll so some more later this week.

Phantom66

Got to be careful with this one, right opponent and right stack sizes, especially as it a relatively well known "move".

You need to have "fold equity" versus your opponent so not too small a stack yourself and they cannot have a monster (for that replace with have you covered if it is a bounty hunter).

Probably works best with a 12-18 bb stack at the business end of a MTT/6max SNG. 

Any less than 12bb just go all-in pre. With 12-18bb we can still get away from the hand if we hate the flop (ie think our opponent will like the flop) and wait for a hand or a spot to open jam ourselves.

unknown_username

dont agree with phantom . ive done this on alot of stt/sat's only upto £5 level mind when ive found myself with less than 10bb. if you shove pre you get called alot more than stop  and go. 

a stop and go as lots in smaller stakes get this wrong is, when you call last to act pre  flop and then first to act on flop (all in).

this works imo better than a shove when you find yourself below 10bb. perfect situation would be it folds to villian on button who min raises to 200, sb folds, you with stack of 900 calls on bb. then goes all in on any flop.

villian folds alot more here than if you shove pre in my limited experience.

this move works very well in sat's

Phantom66

If you are doing it purely as a pre-intentioned bluff with any 2 cards then under 10bb there is a case for that Mickey.

With any sort of hand I would rather shove a less than 10bb stack.

I would rather call pre with 12-18bb and have more room to manouevre and have some equity in the hand pre that we can either hit a made hand, or give ourselves a draw, or turn it into a stop and go if we think we can get our oppnent to fold to a shove.

Essexphil

In Response to Re: Explaining the "Stop & Go".:

If you are doing it purely as a pre-intentioned bluff with any 2 cards then under 10bb there is a case for that Mickey. With any sort of hand I would rather shove a less than 10bb stack. I would rather call pre with 12-18bb and have more room to manouevre and have some equity in the hand pre that we can either hit a made hand, or give ourselves a draw, or turn it into a stop and go if we think we can get our oppnent to fold to a shove.
Posted by Phantom66

A classic stop & go should only (normally) be used with less than 10bb. With 12-18bb, this play would be amended to:- raise by 3-4bb, leaving enough behind for a pot sized jam on the flop

Phantom66

I'll fold on my explanation. You see Tikay this is what happens when you invite comments from anyone not just proper players :-)

However I dont see many "classic" stop and gos get thru these days.

I certainly would call one down with any pair any draw  2 overcards or A high.

If we are opening against a short stack in blinds we must do so expecting to have to play for their stack pre or post. Maybe a sat bubble we can min raise fold but not many other situations where we can plan to do that.

unknown_username

i completely agree with that phantom we should call but lots do not, but now i bet they will .

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Explaining the "Stop & Go".:

I'll fold on my explanation. You see Tikay this is what happens when you invite comments from anyone not just proper players :-) However I dont see many "classic" stop and gos get thru these days. I certainly would call one down with any pair any draw  2 overcards or A high. If we are opening against a short stack in blinds we must do so expecting to have to play for their stack pre or post. Maybe a sat bubble we can min raise fold but not many other situations where we can plan to do that.
Posted by Phantom66

At least we have not had a contribution from Mr Plumpy.

Phantom66

In Response to Re: Explaining the "Stop & Go".:

In Response to Re: Explaining the "Stop & Go". : At least we have not had a contribution from Mr Plumpy.
Posted by Tikay10

He is in Halifax today.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Explaining the "Stop & Go".:

In Response to Re: Explaining the "Stop & Go". : He is in Halifax today.
Posted by Phantom66

My sympathies to Peace Hall.

Phantom66

https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby?action=show_static&page=poker_community_forums&plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3ae0fe4c56-4826-4c14-a350-298f784f4e3dForum%3a7d0c2552-361c-4eda-9a31-b0c8d6bb2fceDiscussion%3aee22c19a-4d5a-46a7-8492-a0be7b718bf3

Itsover4u

You can use a stop and go against good opponents when you flop strong also....

By jamming and making it look like a stop and go they will inevitably see it as weaker

hhyftrftdr

I'm gonna weigh in on this (no pun intended).

Think its much more designed for sub 10bb stacks (but also have some, albeit small, element of fold equity, so kinda pointless with a micro stack). Also pretty pointless doing it against a massive stack cos they are just gonna call you, even more so in a BH. Then the argument is to balance it by stop and going premiums as well as marginals and simply awful hands....

The problem is it just looks like a stop and go, however thats partly why it can be good, very good in certain situations like a DYM bubble; you know its a stop and go, they know it, the whole table knows it, but if the guy has to call off a large chunk (no pun) of their stack with stuff like A high/K high/ small pairs, it puts them in a tricky spot.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Explaining the "Stop & Go".:

I'm gonna weigh in on this (no pun intended). Think its much more designed for sub 10bb stacks (but also have some, albeit small, element of fold equity, so kinda pointless with a micro stack). Also pretty pointless doing it against a massive stack cos they are just gonna call you, even more so in a BH. Then the argument is to balance it by stop and going premiums as well as marginals and simply awful hands.... The problem is it just looks like a stop and go, however thats partly why it can be good, very good in certain situations like a DYM bubble; you know its a stop and go, they know it, the whole table knows it, but if the guy has to call off a large chunk (no pun) of their stack with stuff like A high/K high/ small pairs, it puts them in a tricky spot.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Very good, an all round explanation.

Jac35

In Response to Re: Explaining the "Stop & Go".:

I'm gonna weigh in on this (no pun intended). Think its much more designed for sub 10bb stacks (but also have some, albeit small, element of fold equity, so kinda pointless with a micro stack). Also pretty pointless doing it against a massive stack cos they are just gonna call you, even more so in a BH. Then the argument is to balance it by stop and going premiums as well as marginals and simply awful hands.... The problem is it just looks like a stop and go, however thats partly why it can be good, very good in certain situations like a DYM bubble; you know its a stop and go, they know it, the whole table knows it, but if the guy has to call off a large chunk (no pun) of their stack with stuff like A high/K high/ small pairs, it puts them in a tricky spot.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

A nice weighty contribution

Phantom66

In Response to Re: Explaining the "Stop & Go".:

In Response to Re: Explaining the "Stop & Go". : Very good, an all round explanation.
Posted by Tikay10

I thought so too. The lad clearly knows alot about short stacks.

FCHD

Surely the "Stop & Go" is much like a "Sit & Go", just more of an oxymoron?

hhyftrftdr

I didn't attempt a single stop and go en route to having the distinction, honour and privilege of winning the last ever tournament held at Grosvenor Leeds last night.

I did attempt a stop and go in a BH a couple of weeks ago. I had the distinction, honour and privilege of getting completely pwned that hand.

Phantom66

In Response to Re: Explaining the "Stop & Go".:

I didn't attempt a single stop and go en route to having the distinction, honour and privilege of winning the last ever tournament held at Grosvenor Leeds last night. I did attempt a stop and go in a BH a couple of weeks ago. I had the distinction, honour and privilege of getting completely pwned that hand.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Winning?

Proof?

I can see a photo you are in but there is no winning hand pic?

PS How did you get on in Halifax?

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Explaining the "Stop & Go".:

In Response to Re: Explaining the "Stop & Go". : Winning? Proof? I can see a photo you are in but there is no winning hand pic? PS How did you get on in Halifax?
Posted by Phantom66

I was gracious enough to deal when 3 handed despite my monster (2bb) chip lead. I don't mind accepting a hollow victory.

I've never been to Halifax....

Phantom66

Now there you go - if you had just said you got to the last 3 and chopped it you would have got a wp nice bink etc. But you had to go and spoil things by making up a massive lie.

My mistake, it was actually in York not Halifax.

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/14655432.Yorkshire_Day_celebrations_across_the_Ridings/

Main Yorkshire Day celebrations were in Halifax but your specialist event Yorkshire Pudding Tossing was in York Maze.

Phantom66

In Response to Re: Explaining the "Stop & Go".:

Surely the "Stop & Go" is much like a "Sit & Go", just more of an oxymoron?
Posted by FCHD

I got it Barny WP

Charlton Athletic was the example my English teacher used to use.

NChanning

 Hasn't the Stop n Go been more or less discredited? I used to quite like it but it's pretty old-school now isn't it?

 If I have 10bbs in the bb and someone has raised and I shove a hand like Q10 I would really like hands like QJ, K9 and up to fold and they won't. I might get things like K8, Q9 and below to fold but most of those I'm good against. However if I stop go on 862 I might get A9 and above or K10 and above or QJ to fold. I might just miss out on getting the reluctant pre-flop call from a hand I'm dominating though. Isn't it pretty much swings and roundabouts?

 How does the maths work to know whether it's better to do a SnG or just shove and which kind of hands work better for each in the bb with 10bbs and after a late position raiser who has you covered has opened?

markycash

In Response to Re: Explaining the "Stop & Go".:

 Hasn't the Stop n Go been more or less discredited? I used to quite like it but it's pretty old-school now isn't it?  If I have 10bbs in the bb and someone has raised and I shove a hand like Q10 I would really like hands like QJ, K9 and up to fold and they won't. I might get things like K8, Q9 and below to fold but most of those I'm good against. However if I stop go on 862 I might get A9 and above or K10 and above or QJ to fold. I might just miss out on getting the reluctant pre-flop call from a hand I'm dominating though. Isn't it pretty much swings and roundabouts?  How does the maths work to know whether it's better to do a SnG or just shove and which kind of hands work better for each in the bb with 10bbs and after a late position raiser who has you covered has opened?
Posted by NChanning

Good point, I guess if you were to post a stop n go hand in the strategy forum it would be described by many these days as a 'donk shove' on the flop.