Omaha Hi Lo Query

adzbo

Evening all,

Something popped into my head in a OHL game tonight and I thought I'd get what people's thought are about it.

There's something from a Sklansky book (or books, possibly?) called the "gap concept" which, for those of you that are unaware of it, says that to call a raise you need a better hand than you do to open a pot in the first place.

As far as I'm aware (which isn't much so that means I'm probably wrong!), this is a theory in regards to Hold Em, but I'm wondering whether people think it carries as much  weight in OHL?

Thought would be very much appreciated!

Cheers,

Adzzz

Itsover4u

I'm not sure how much weight it carries in Holdem anymore to be honest 

gerardirl

Player dependant I reckon adzbo, also position and stack sizes determine a call for me.

Ger

Tikay10

Fascinating question, which Adzy asked me on the tables last night, but I had a lot of tables on the go, so suggested he post it on the forum.

To a degree, Ger is correct - it depends upon so many variables, there is no definitive answer.

But you need to go back to the vey start of the hand really. Most of our profit or loss comes from that first, pre-flop, decision, so that's when we need to pay careful attention.

Don't think it matters what game we are playing, NLH, O8, or whatever, & maybe "Gap" has a new name these days.
 
But it DOES matter, yes, & here's why. (IMO).
 
When we are dealt our hand, we instantly - in a millisecond - know if it is playable. But now we have to factor in what other players do in front of us. 

In NLH, let's say we are on the button & are dealt A-9. We are gonna bring in a raise, right? Course we are. But then Mr Nit, UTG, pots it, then Mr McTight behind him repots it. Now what do we do with our A-9? Bin it, every time.
 
Now if we transfer this to PLO8, & here is something I see every single night.
 
We have, say, A-10-4-7 on the Button. Good enough to raise, that. But our friend Mr Nit UTG, & Mr McTight UTG+1 repots. 

Now what are we doing with our A-10-4-7? IT MUST BE BEHIND, BOTH ENDS. We can gamble, yeah, we can't be miles behind, but we are deffo a dog here. 

And that is the mistake so many make. First thought is "I'm gonna pot this", but we should be ready to change our mind based on the action in front of us. And in this spot, it is a clear fold. WE need to believe that our hand is better than the hand which opened. And A-10-4-7 ain't gonna beat many hands that open, is it? And yet, without action in front of us, it's a very playable hand. In fact, Villain COULD have the same hand, or worse. But once he opens, we have to step aside - we need to believe our hand is better. And that's unlikely. (Assumes we have a playable stack. In some spots of course, any 4 will have to do).  
 
PS to Adzy - always a pleasure to share tables with you, good banter, & you are a good winner as well as a good loser. Proper gent, like.     
  

adzbo

Cheers for the responses!

Itsover4u - I play nowhere near as much Hold Em as I do OHL these days so you will probably know way more than me about whether people still think it carries weight, however, I'd say the logic behind it is still sound, though it would only be a factor along with other things like, as Ger said, the player, position and stack sizes.

Ger and T - all valid points that you bring up there, and not much, if anything, I'd disagree with from you guys have written.

It was actually a hand from last night with you that made this pop into my head, to be honest T. I was in BB with something like A3TJ (roughly), which I was pretty happy see in BB, if there'd been no action beforehand I'd have more than likely raised if 1 or 2 people had limped in. Everyone folded before you and you potted from the cutoff, which kinda made me think that, having played a lot against you, I was going to have to catch a flop to win. If you'd raised from the Button, I'd have thought of it as more of a semi-bluff/steal but with the Button, SB and BB in front of you I kinda figured that you had a hand - possibly something like A2Kx/A2Qx.

My fold may have been slightly on the tight side there (if I was right, anyway), but the blinds were starting to get big and I thought there would be better spots to get my chips in than that.

P.S. Thanks, T, that's nice of you to say so. The feeling is mutual. There's some good craic on the OHL tables and they're a decent blunch of folk plus it's always nice to be able to chat to people about hands and concepts because that's the best way to try and improve your game, I think. The feedback is definitely always appreciated so thanks again!

Adzzz

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Omaha Hi Lo Query:

Cheers for the responses! Itsover4u - I play nowhere near as much Hold Em as I do OHL these days so you will probably know way more than me about whether people still think it carries weight, however, I'd say the logic behind it is still sound, though it would only be a factor along with other things like, as Ger said, the player, position and stack sizes. Ger and T - all valid points that you bring up there, and not much, if anything, I'd disagree with from you guys have written. It was actually a hand from last night with you that made this pop into my head, to be honest T. I was in BB with something like A3TJ (roughly), which I was pretty happy see in BB, if there'd been no action beforehand I'd have more than likely raised if 1 or 2 people had limped in. Everyone folded before you and you potted from the cutoff, which kinda made me think that, having played a lot against you, I was going to have to catch a flop to win. If you'd raised from the Button, I'd have thought of it as more of a semi-bluff/steal but with the Button, SB and BB in front of you I kinda figured that you had a hand - possibly something like A2Kx/A2Qx. My fold may have been slightly on the tight side there (if I was right, anyway), but the blinds were starting to get big and I thought there would be better spots to get my chips in than that. P.S. Thanks, T, that's nice of you to say so. The feeling is mutual. There's some good craic on the OHL tables and they're a decent blunch of folk plus it's always nice to be able to chat to people about hands and concepts because that's the best way to try and improve your game, I think. The feedback is definitely always appreciated so thanks again! Adzzz
Posted by adzbo

I beg your pardon Adzzz?

You confusing me with Hendo?

Always got it, me, or as we used to say, "never without".

adzbo

In Response to Re: Omaha Hi Lo Query:

In Response to Re: Omaha Hi Lo Query : I beg your pardon Adzzz? You confusing me with Hendo? Always got it, me, or as we used to say, " never without" .
Posted by Tikay10

Ha! Must be! To be fair, bluff was the wrong choice of word. In your earlier post you stated that A-10-7-4 is a raisable hand from the button.  I agree, though I'd say that was more of a semi-bluff where you'd much rather have the blinds than face action with it.

From the cutoff I'd expect you to have more than that to raise because, as you say, you're "never without"

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Omaha Hi Lo Query:

In Response to Re: Omaha Hi Lo Query : Ha! Must be! To be fair, bluff was the wrong choice of word. In your earlier post you stated that A-10-7-4 is a raisable hand from the button.  I agree, though I'd say that was more of a semi-bluff where you'd much rather have the blinds than face action with it. From the cutoff I'd expect you to have more than that to raise because, as you say, you're "never without"
Posted by adzbo

Ha.

More seriously, yes, exactly that.

LOVE taking down pots uncontested pre-flop. In fact, I rarely lose them.
 
6 handed, of course, in some ways, we have more "buttons", & 4 handed, we are, in effect, the button twice an orbit.