Turbo DYM,s???

MP33

Hi 

Q1: Are they beatable?

Q2: Where is the best place to learn about them and how best to play them?

(theres loadsa stuff on normal DYM,s but can,t find anything on turbos)

Q3 : For any DYM players - How do you adapt to playing the turbos on here with 2 min blinds and 1K starting stack

Thx

MP

MrWh1te

1) Yes absolutely.

2) I found John O'Connor's post on sky valuable and just tweaked it.

3) Know your opponent.  Regs won't call with rubbish.
    Be tight, I often am in a bubble situation without playing a hand.
    Know the time of day, you can be tighter earlier in the day, but later in evening you may need to loosen up.

4) Can't believe I am offering advice to a player like you, I feel like a fraud

nickd49931

In Response to Turbo DYM,s???:

Hi  Q1: Are they beatable? Q2: Where is the best place to learn about them and how best to play them? (theres loadsa stuff on normal DYM,s but can,t find anything on turbos) Q3 : For any DYM players - How do you adapt to playing the turbos on here with 2 min blinds and 1K starting stack Thx MP
Posted by MP33

Before RB and bonuses i'd be surprised if these are all that beatable, the odd person seems to be able to beat 5s for 1-2%. but browsing around sharkscope most graphs i see are losing 

MP33

In Response to Re: Turbo DYM,s???:

1) Yes absolutely. 2) I found John O'Connor's post on sky valuable and just tweaked it. 3) Know your opponent.  Regs won't call with rubbish.     Be tight, I often am in a bubble situation without playing a hand.     Know the time of day, you can be tighter earlier in the day, but later in evening you may need to loosen up. 4) Can't believe I am offering advice to a player like you, I feel like a fraud
Posted by MrWh1te

Hi Mrwh1te

i did read this when it first came out. I could probably do with reading it again. Ideally tho i could do with someone of JC,s calibre writing another one specifically for Turbos. 

not sure about the last bit but thx anyway

MP33

In Response to Re: Turbo DYM,s???:

In Response to Turbo DYM,s??? : Before RB and bonuses i'd be surprised if these are all that beatable, the odd person seems to be able to beat 5s for 1-2%. but browsing around sharkscope most graphs i see are losing 
Posted by nickd49931

Good point nick. I,ve started looking at these ROI,s as well. I haven,t seen anyone yet with over 2% on these games and anything + is very rare. 

That sounds like a challenge tho

I,m gonna carry on practising tho at these and see what i can get my ROI too and when theres a decent promo on i,ll take part if i,m breaking evens on them

Ps - Still looking for youtube vids, strategy advice on forums or anyone who plays them on Twitch

Phantom66

i am doing ok at £3 turbo dyms and abysmally at £5 turbo dyms. There shouldn't be that much difference but my results are still over a fairly small sample but the gap is so wide it can't just be variance.

I think during points promos the £5s are particulary reg infested which probably explains some of the difference.

£2.25 and below you have the higher rake %, so I suspect are pretty unbeatable.

With a Turbo format even if you are on a table with weaker players you dont have many opportunities to take easy chips early doors. 

IMO they are all about getting to the bubble as risk free as possible and then making the right push/fold/call decisions for your stack preflop.

ICM calcs and push/fold tables are the best places to find an edge over the casual players and protect yourself v the regs. ICMizer (as recommended by TeddyBloat) is a good tool where you can reg and get some free calcs to check your marginal decisions to see if you need to make any adjustments.

TeddyBloat

I doubt there will be upto date strat for dyms due to their being dropped by most major sites.

I checked deuces cracked and saw that their admin posted that they likely wouldn't make strat vids for them as collusion is so rife they wouldn't want to promote them. That was in 2010 before stars dropped them.

If you do want to Google around, they were known as 'double or nothing' on star so try that term - or DONs

MrWh1te

I am pretty much breakeven in them, but that includes C4P etc that I get.

I always include rakeback etc in 'winnings' because all it is is a way of paying less rake.

And if I can break even, others must be able to beat them because I am not a great player. 

Anyone here with sharkscope able to give me an uptodate % of my profit/loss on just dyms please?  My graph shows me minus 416 but that isn't accurate as it doesn't include promos/rakebacks etc, or the free seats I get such as the £220? seat from forum game I just had.

6 handed I am shown as finishing 1st (which is 1-3 in dyms) in 53% of games.  Include promo stuff and I am turning a profit

I have just done a search on banking transactions and I am +470 on banking transactions this year, and currently have £130 in account so £600 in profit, and that is about average (I make £100 per month on average across all my sites and that has been pretty consistent over the last 5 years).

I don't play cash games, only sngs/mtts and that should be pretty easy to track. I do bet too and make some profit from that, but I am pretty sure I am evens-ish from poker and that just about all my profit comes from promos

HENDRIK62

when I filter to only SNG you show as -£361 over 3165 games

TeddyBloat

http://imgur.com/a/le12Q

I have given you 20% rakeback, but I think sky is only 10%.

That is dyms only. You'd be a winner in a rakeless enviromemt. Sky's low stakes dym pools are a high rake enviromemt, unfortunately.

Red line = actual profit / loss (My scope is in $s)

Green = profit / loss + 20% RB ( though I think sky is 10%)

Blue = profit / loss if rake wasn't paid by any players

Grey = 20% rb

MrWh1te

Interesting thank you.

Maybe I am winning more at sports betting than I thought?

Hmm, is rake correct?

I play usually to 100 points.  I don't go over that because there is less value and my rakeback % decreases. 

102 points on the £2.25 games is 34 games.  That = £8.50 rake and I get a £2.25 token which = 26.5% rakeback.

Then, I often only play when it is double points.  That would be only 17 games which would be £4.25 rake which would equate to 53% rakeback.

Or am I completely wrong?
 

----------------

Thinking of the -£361 figure over 3165 games as a different way of calculating.

3165/34 = 93 sets of games (a set being 102 points).
That means, that 93 games are free (with the rakeback token). 93 x 2.25 = £209.25
That would put loss at roughly £152 instead.  I get quite a few free tokens of £2.25 for depositing too with a code.

And forum comp prizes, such as a £110 ticket from Tikay and DTD/FSOP monthly prizes which will also show as a loss in my column but actually were free (on mtt tab, not sng though)
-----------------

Earning these points also get me into freerolls, where I have won quite a few quid, and I count this money as part of the rakeback deal.

I am not saying the SS figures are wrong, just trying to work out where my profit is coming from and which parts of SS I can use/avoid etc

Because I don't really play for fun these days. The missus and I play to grind a few pence as a way of paying for our wedding and if I am not making a profit on a certain game, I may as well avoid it
I was under the impression that grinding a few DYM's broke me even, with any wins the resulting freerolls as profit, but the above figures may prove me wrong on that

HENDRIK62

In my experience SS is a bit iffy with MTTs and obviously shows forum seats etc as a loss, its tracking of SNG is pretty accurate though

TeddyBloat

I haven't played under the new rb system here and can barely remember the old one.

Here's with 45% rb

http://imgur.com/a/seejA

A funny thing happens with the profit excluding rake line when you have rb applied, so the one above is wrong. here is your true winnings if there was no rake, you are beating the player pool comfortably, but need a whopping 45% rakeback to break even at low stakes dyms. It's why I think they are a terrible game for new players to try out.

Here's the true zero rake graph : http://imgur.com/a/6GHvd

Scope has no way of knowing what competition entries you have won, but it can track your free roll winnings and you are up circa $440 in those. How many of those freerolls are a direct result of dym points and how many were already available - again scope can't tell you that

TeddyBloat

If you could improve to the point where you were beating the games outright then you wouldn't have to monitor how many points you have gained. As each game would have a positive expectation you would be incentivisef to play more and not have to keep such a close watch on your points.

It might mean moving up stakes or a format change to summat with beatable rake, or some off table work in your current games.
 but you might start enjoying games again

IDONKCALLU

i find turbo dyms easier to cash in then normal dyms people play crazy in em just sit back n wat for the shove /fold mod usually only 4 left at this point so only 1 to beat 

TeddyBloat

Appearances are deceiving, donk.

Your itm is higher in non turbo dyms, despite you playing low stakes turbos and midstakes in non turbos.

Edges are significantly lower in turbo dyms, I doubt anyone has a higher itm% in them over a decent sample.

Phantom66

Interesting point if you wish to maximise your rakeback with low stakes and volumes and you stop as soon as you pass 100 points for your £2.30 token.

You can actually make 92% rb at 30p DYMS when x2 promos are running! This is because while rake is a higher % at low stakes, the points awarded are rounded up to 1 for 30p DYMs and 3 for £2.25 DYMs.

To illustrate:-

Normal points				games	total	total
Entry	Rake	Game BI	pts	/100 pts	stake	rake	rb	rb %
0.25	0.05	0.3	1	100	30	5	2.3	46%
2	0.25	2.25	3	34	76.5	8.5	2.3	27%
3	0.3	3.3	3	34	112.2	10.2	2.3	23%
Double points				games	total	total
Entry	Rake	Game BI	pts	/100 pts	stake	rake	rb	rb %
0.25	0.05	0.3	2	50	15	2.5	2.3	92%
2	0.25	2.25	6	17	38.25	4.25	2.3	54%
3	0.3	3.3	6	17	56.1	5.1	2.3	45%

Phantom66

In Response to Re: Turbo DYM,s???:

Appearances are deceiving, donk. Your itm is higher in non turbo dyms, despite you playing low stakes turbos and midstakes in non turbos. Edges are significantly lower in turbo dyms, I doubt anyone has a higher itm% in them over a decent sample.
Posted by TeddyBloat

I would wager that I do at the £3.30 level although it won't be over a decent sample.

MattBates

Surely you would play them due a better hourly rate rather than a better ROI. 

Phantom66

In Response to Re: Turbo DYM,s???:

Surely you would play them due a better hourly rate rather than a better ROI. 
Posted by MattBates

Sure Matt.

It was not meant as playing advice, just an interesting (imo) observation on the anomlay caused by the lowest stake highest raked DYMs earning more points per buck. 

I mentioned it because Mr White specifically said he stops at 100 pts.

General wisdom is to play at £3.30 and above in DYMs because it is the break point where the rake drops to 10% and for anyone making 500pts plus it's a normal rake % equation and the lower rake paid makes a big difference to win rate and ROI.

Because of this anomaly for a low stakes rec player, it seems pretty good value to take advantage of the points promo and for an outlay of just £17.50 get nearly all of your rake back and gain entry to 5x£1000 freerolls. 

To maximise profit I would say play at the highest stakes you can win at and at the most tables you can sustain a win rate at. ROI% for show hourly rate for dough ;-)

Edit: Just realised you meant playing Turbos v normal speed.

In which case I would think generally the ROI difference may well be worth it for a skilled player to stick with normal speed despite the faster churn of the games? Turbos are significantly quicker though so it could be close.

Avg time in lobbies is 12 min turbo v 30 min standard.

So for a reg who can make 5% on standard they would need to be able to sustain > 2% to make more on turbos.

MP33

In Response to Re: Turbo DYM,s???:

i am doing ok at £3 turbo dyms and abysmally at £5 turbo dyms. There shouldn't be that much difference but my results are still over a fairly small sample but the gap is so wide it can't just be variance. I think during points promos the £5s are particulary reg infested which probably explains some of the difference. £2.25 and below you have the higher rake %, so I suspect are pretty unbeatable. With a Turbo format even if you are on a table with weaker players you dont have many opportunities to take easy chips early doors.  IMO they are all about getting to the bubble as risk free as possible and then making the right push/fold/call decisions for your stack preflop. ICM calcs and push/fold tables are the best places to find an edge over the casual players and protect yourself v the regs. ICMizer (as recommended by TeddyBloat) is a good tool where you can reg and get some free calcs to check your marginal decisions to see if you need to make any adjustments.
Posted by Phantom66

Cheers Guys. I,ll take a look at this - Never used these things before but i,m still finding myself in a few spots where i,m unsure if its the right decison. Struggles on them for a while today - To many regs and a cpl of basic errors cost me games. All the ROI stuff is a bit complicating but my aim is to just to cash in more than 55% and let the bonuses take care of themselves. As i,m new to this its all taking me time to suss out the regs hand ranges in some spots but that should get easier the more play them.

Does anyone ever post hands from Turbo DYM,s in the clinic now

stuarty117

Most of the players that play turbos are rakeback players.

Also they are not turbos they play more like superturbos comparing them to other sites.

Alot of regs have a roi of 0 to 1% over 1000s of games. The best reg i can find has a roi of 3.3% last time i checked so thats a winrate of around 57% at 5.50s. But they are few and far between.

in my experiance alot of the normals do not run for 30mins anymore. Players now know what they are doing and they last on average 35 to 40 especially plo8s. Turbos last 10 to 12 mins. 

The best normal 5.50s dym players have a roi around 10% so if you one table you can nearly fit 3 in the same time. But the turbo player will make 3x the points so this is where they are making the money.

There is alot less winning players at turbos dyms than there is at normals. This is simple the rake on sky is too much for these sorts of games. Other sites charge slighty less for these quick games. But with double points does make them little more beatable if you add the rb on. Even some of the best dym players on the site have minus figures playing these.

I dabbled in these over the last month or so at the 1.15 and 2.25 level for the triple point/double point promo and have played over 400 with a winrate of over 60%. I dont think this winrate is sustabable long term. 

My tips are you cannot sit tight in these you have to get invovled quickly open your range right from the off. JJ in a normal dym is prob a fold in level one. It now becomes a call against alot of players. 

Jac35

In Response to Re: Turbo DYM,s???:

Most of the players that play turbos are rakeback players. Also they are not turbos they play more like superturbos comparing them to other sites. Alot of regs have a roi of 0 to 1% over 1000s of games. The best reg i can find has a roi of 3.3% last time i checked so thats a winrate of around 57% at 5.50s. But they are few and far between. in my experiance alot of the normals do not run for 30mins anymore. Players now know what they are doing and they last on average 35 to 40 especially plo8s. Turbos last 10 to 12 mins.  The best normal 5.50s dym players have a roi around 10% so if you one table you can nearly fit 3 in the same time. But the turbo player will make 3x the points so this is where they are making the money. There is alot less winning players at turbos dyms than there is at normals. This is simple the rake on sky is too much for these sorts of games. Other sites charge slighty less for these quick games. But with double points does make them little more beatable if you add the rb on. Even some of the best dym players on the site have minus figures playing these. I dabbled in these over the last month or so at the 1.15 and 2.25 level for the triple point/double point promo and have played over 400 with a winrate of over 60%. I dont think this winrate is sustabable long term.  My tips are you cannot sit tight in these you have to get invovled quickly open your range right from the off. JJ in a normal dym is prob a fold in level one. It now becomes a call against alot of players. 
Posted by stuarty117

That's interesting

I think I have seen 2 players ever with an roi at 10% over a decent sample in all time on Sky at all stakes

stuarty117

In Response to Re: Turbo DYM,s???:

In Response to Re: Turbo DYM,s??? : That's interesting I think I have seen 2 players ever with an roi at 10% over a decent sample in all time on Sky at all stakes
Posted by Jac35

2 guys are on the scope leaderboard for this year with a 10% roi at 5.50 normals over there time. Just checked and one has dropped to just under 10. Also i know of another with 12% but i think they only 1 table but still if fantastic stats.

cyall

How when sky fixes every game you  i.e. Sky cheat

MP33

In Response to Re: Turbo DYM,s???:

In Response to Turbo DYM,s??? : Before RB and bonuses i'd be surprised if these are all that beatable, the odd person seems to be able to beat 5s for 1-2%. but browsing around sharkscope most graphs i see are losing 
Posted by nickd49931

I,m coming to this conclusion myself. There is 1 guy who has been on 3.3% for some time over a large amount of games and there are 1 or 2 others who seem to be beating it slightly but also play russian roulettes to boost their points which knocks their ROI down. I,ve had to do the same and its knocked me down 1/2 percent in 1 night.

I,ve played a few hundred of them now and am above 55% cash rate but with a cpl of regs on the table it soon drops and their hard to avoid on here - it seems when 1 leaves a session another 1 comes in and starts theres

I suppose they are beatable with careful table selection but your never gonna get any where near the volume in to make it worthwile