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PLO8 BH MTT Hands
OK ladies and gentlemen now that we have some PLO8 bounty hunters up and running I for one need to improve my game. The first few I have played I have done OK but not taken many bounties, I have also played most of the early and mid stages as a short stack, this one went a little differently and I actually had a half decent stack sitting somewhere like 11th out of 33 when this hand played out. Unfortunately four of the other players had larger stacks with one shorty.
Anyway player X is the small stack and the raise by Y looks very much like an attempt to try and win the bounty. I call pre and get a pretty good flop but unfortunately both others have hit it as well.
My question is should I play this differently, should I fold (pre or post flop)? It seemed a shame to go out with a playable stack when I am getting my whole stack in needing to hit.
Comments and constructive criticism welcome and if others want to post hands feel free.
Player
Anyway player X is the small stack and the raise by Y looks very much like an attempt to try and win the bounty. I call pre and get a pretty good flop but unfortunately both others have hit it as well.
My question is should I play this differently, should I fold (pre or post flop)? It seemed a shame to go out with a playable stack when I am getting my whole stack in needing to hit.
Comments and constructive criticism welcome and if others want to post hands feel free.
Player
| Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| xxxxx | Small blind | 150.00 | 150.00 | 696.87 | |
| UrABawBag2 | Big blind | 300.00 | 450.00 | 8850.00 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| pomfrittes | Call | 300.00 | 750.00 | 8789.99 | |
| yyyyy | Raise | 1200.00 | 1950.00 | 8681.25 | |
| resusbabe5 | Fold | ||||
| Enut | Call | 1200.00 | 3150.00 | 6171.25 | |
| xxxx | All-in | 696.87 | 3846.87 | 0.00 | |
| UrABawBag2 | Fold | ||||
| pomfrittes | Call | 900.00 | 4746.87 | 7889.99 | |
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| pomfrittes | Check | ||||
| yyyy | Bet | 4746.87 | 9493.74 | 3934.38 | |
| Enut | All-in | 6171.25 | 15664.99 | 0.00 | |
| pomfrittes | Fold | ||||
| yyyy | Call | 1424.38 | 17089.37 | 2510.00 | |
| xxxx | Show |
| |||
| yyyy | Show |
| |||
| Enut | Show |
| |||
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| River | |||||
| |||||
| xxxx | Win high | Full House, 3s and Jacks | 3687.48 | 3687.48 | |
| yyyy | Win high | Three 3s | 13401.89 | 15911.89 | |
| No qualifying low hand | |||||
Comments
Just one to chalk up to not running good and wait for the other side of the variance coin to show up in future.
If there was an area that is debatable or where differing opinions may emerge it would be whether to 3bet preflop. In my opinion the flat call is correct though in this spot. The player who pots it looks like they may be bounty hunting, if this is the case it doesn't really look like they are scared to play for stacks and are trying to get in cheap so I would assume they are calling. There is also pom to think about and maybe the raising player is actually bounty hunting with an actual big hand.
Therefore I would be flatting and re-evaluating on the flop. On the flop you have to presume you have outs (which you do) and the pot is already decent with a bounty at stake too. If they had both checked to you on the flop then a bet of around 1500 would be the best play imo. If they raise then fair enough but if they flat call and the turn is a brick then they probably check to you again and you get to draw the river free. Then you have options as to how to procede whatever the river is. As is the case though yyyy is putting his chips in the middle and I wouldn't be going anywhere.
There is a very strong case for flat calling the turn and trying to get pom to come along. That is just nit picking though and I would say you played the hand well. Better luck next time (unless it is a pot with me).
I would say because OH8 isn't Hold EM and it is good to not have pacing and readiness to shove set the way we might in Hold EM (and IMO that is the nuts and bolts of it). There is a caveat though! Plenty OH8 players would 3bet pot/'effectively shove' here preflop. Would it be optimal though? I don't think so.
There is a fair point here that the person potting it first preflop is doing so to isolate the bounty and could do so with a wide range. The problem is though IMO that (a) Even against a 1 way hand like KKTT we are not 'crushing' percentage wise, (b) there are other players in the hand, (c) it doesn't look like we have fold equity, (d) we will probably be able to find better spots & (e) they may actually have a big hand. Thus while it is unlikely we would be in awful shape if we get it AIPF (and may even be a little ahead), it is very likely to be a marginal spot to get it all in and we are likely just 'gambling'.
By flat calling (in good table position) we have ways out of the hand and a lot of options post flop. Our hand is a monster on certain flop textures and dead in the water on others. The flat call leaves us plenty behind and lets us evaluate which of these flop textures we have. As is often the case it is neither, and is somewhere in the middle (leaning towards the good end of the spectrum) and leaves us in a tricky spot but we have position, have seen the flop, and can make a decent informed choice.
Another point I would make against 3 betting preflop is that... we aren't losing too much value here even if we smash the flop. I think we would very often get another players stack all in due to the stack sizes, size of the pot, and the fact there is a bounty to be had and likely going to be a sidepot. Also by flat calling we have the chance to kick a lot of ranges out of the pot postflop that we might be in bad shape to getting it AIPF.
The stack sizes here are just not great for 3 bet potting it preflop either. If the pot raiser preflop had a smaller stack then I would just try and isolate them and the shortest stack.
It's O8, but A-2 is not the nuts.
It's quite a relief to see that I didn't get it horrendously wrong but when you go out of 2 DYMs and a MTT with pretty much the same draw in the space of about 1/2 an hour you tend to think you're getting something wrong!
Mark summarised my thinking pretty well and much more eloquently than I could. I didn't want to reraise AIP due to the chance of running into AA2x or, more likely, a worse hand that still beat me, so elected to see a flop. The 335 flop looked pretty good to me, I wasn't worried about the small stack and I was obviously behind but figured I still had 9 outs to the wheel and 12 to the low (minus cards held by my opponents obviously).
I ran my hand and yyyy's through an odds calculator and it made me 56% ev against his 44% (again ignoring the small stack's hand) so I guess it was just one of those hands.
Thanks again for your comments.
820 trials (Exhaustive)
Well done last night by the way, where did you finish?
Also styles as mentioned is a factor. Even within my self, my style changes depending on a lot of factors over time. At the moment I feel very settled and on my 'A Game' so am obviously happy with my current style and in that scenario with these stacks (BH or not) I would view it as a big error to 3bet shove here... If I was feeling that my game was all over the place at a particular point and I was struggling and losing focus I might 3bet shove and just take a marginally +ev spot on.
I understand that it may look favourable in an equity sense but that doesn't mean it is necessarily the correct play to 3bet shove, IMO at least, it depends what your ROI expectations are. If the goal is to do consistently well in these, then spots where we could end our tourney right there and then a large percentage of the time have to be treated with lots of caution. It is basically okay IMO to pass up a spot you may be 60/40 ahead in if forced to play for stacks and look for spots where you have a modicum of pot control.
Unless the bounty has a tiny stack that is almost of no consecquence to my stack then I pay no attention to the bounty early on. You could say that is a mistake but the benefit for me is that when I do find favourable spots players will pay me off lighter than they should as they themselves factor in bounties. This obviously means gaining more chips and equity quite often which has the end result of making it more likely you collect bounties anyway.
The stack sizes make such a difference. With a large stack you can take the gloves off and go for the kill but if it doesn't work out you can reign it in and play with more care. Then if we get short we need to up the tempo again. In this spot we have IMO a comfortable stack and are not in immediate danger so I wouldn't be looking to take on a 'flip' with a comparable stack.
In Response to Re: PLO8 BH MTT Hands: I just mean compared to spots you could sneak into where you may have crept into a pot cheaply in position and flopped big or are in a spot where you can apply pressure and try to pick up uncontested chips.
In Response to Re: PLO8 BH MTT Hands: Agreed that in theory they could fold. Going by the info available to us though it doesn't look likely they will fold. With a limper in EP the player has smashed the pot button, it doesn't look like he is going after pot control. If they had standard opened I think there is more chance he folds to a 3bet. In this instance the message they seem to be conveying is that 'I want the bounty and I am going nowhere'. So while they certainly could fold, I think the working assumption would have to be that they are calling and we therefore have no fold equity.
It is good to have different points of view, makes for interesting debate and highlights the complexities of OH8
Your second was a great result, especially as you were a card from going out in 5th I think until you spiked one of the two remaining 7s! I didn't even mind that until you went and knocked me out!
It probably doesn't matter too much how you play it, but if your thinking about it then try and get more reads.
initially your instant read is player is going for the bounty-go with that and 3!
Is the 4x opener someone who folds or opens wide or aggr when it suits them (ie now), is your 3! image clean (ie not someone who always repot A2Q, AQ3 etc), you should get away with it.
you don't want to only 3! AA2 and AA3, but also don't want to 3! with A24Q everytime either.
As for the flop, I think its a call if it were near the end IMO, or early versus someone I'd like to knock out who may be OOL.
vs a donk I'd fold cos they have the 3 and you have 20BB, plenty to aquire more chips with if there's still plenty of bad players.
I was the SB and quadrupled up so many thanks!