You need to be logged in to your Sky Poker account above to post discussions and comments.
You might need to refresh your page afterwards.
Sky Poker forums will be temporarily unavailable from 11pm Wednesday July 25th.
Sky Poker Forums is upgrading its look! Stay tuned for the big reveal!
How far can you go with no hole cards, instincts and position?
Hey all, i just thort id share with you all a little experiment i have been carrying out.
After a discussion i had with a mate, and remembering the annette obrestad example, i thort id give it a go.
So, the idea was to cover my hole cards using post it notes! i had the lobby up at the same time so i could see chip counts ect...
The aim of this, was to see just how far i could go in a sit and go using only position, any reads i could pick up on other players, betting patterns and tendencies, that sort of thing.
So the first game i played was a £5.50 scary. Top 2 paid jobby.
Obviously this is a fast format, so no time to sit around. So the first thing i do is wait an orbit, look who plays every pot, who is tightish (i know 1 orbit isnt enough to gain this sort of info, but its all i had in this format!)
I then start raising every button, if theres a call and checked to me on flop, if the board is dry and doesnt look like it hit them, i cbet, generally the c bet will get thru. If not, i would evaluate on the turn. If there were draws out there such as flush/straights i mite fire if the turn and river misses, but generally i give up the pot if a scare cards hit or its obv the guy isnt drawing.
I also decided that any 'donk' bet would be immediately raised, just out of principle!
If it was limped round to the sb and they limped into my bb i would auto raise and c bet if called.
It is surprising how much you can pick up about opponents when you are solely focusing on them and disregarding your cards completely.
It made me focus on the situations that were arising. 2 limps from late position into my bb i decide to shove to steal. All oppos fold. Do we do that if we look at our hand and its 83off? Our cards are irrelevent really, but it makes it much harder to do!
Another example was when an aggro player limped in first position, sb made up, im in the bb. I could shove here and try and pick up the pot like before, but why has this player limped utg? he usually aggro, and ive just made the same move on my last bb. i check and fold the flop, so does sb, and utg shows kk. Do i have this read if im playin 8 tables and just playing abc poker? It would be hard.
So any way, in the end i raise the button again and the bb ships. Now this is where i was stuck! obv i dont know my hand so how can i call? i hope i have 2 live cards as the bb is the short stack and his range is pretty wide, im getting a good price so i decide to call. he shows a4 i ad the monster that is 9 3 suited!!! his hand held up and im out in 3rd, one off the money!
I then play another, using the same tactics and i get heads up!! I raise every button, gain the chip lead, i notice that evrytime oppo min raises the button he must be weak, so i move in on him and he folds a few.
I have just over a 3-1 chip lead, and now any raise i make sets him in! This was where i obviously found a problem. eventually i need a hand to go to showdown! we ended up all in a few times when i got him low, but hed just double up, until eventually he won!
So, what did i achieve from this little experiment? (i appreciate that this isnt any sort of sample group to work with as it was only a couple of games!!!)
But by employing these tactics, does variance play a significant role in the overall outcome? If we dont know our own hand, and we only know situations that would be the same everytime (assuming we dont have to go to showdown)? such as a dym.
I think that low stakes DYM's would be the perfect game type for this type of strategy as you dont have to have a hand to eventually win. U can sit bak and let the others do the fighting, while you study their tendancies and try to exploit, whilst stealing the odd bb along the way to keep afloat.
This little experiment has tought me quiet alot. It has shown me how insignificant your cards actually are! I know its an old cliche but its true. I agree that if you are playing a tournament you will eventually need a hand, but you can quite easily go deep, just by exploiting situations, oppos betting patterns and tendencies and playing position well.
I was suprised at how much info you can gain on an oppo in such a short period of time, just by paying attention! i know it goes without saying, but many players dont look past their own cards! I knew from two orbits who not to bluff, who was weak passive and who was a rock, so when rock raises i fold, when passive limps i raise, and when the station is in i dont even bother! So with this info, how important are our cards?
It is also a good indicator of how good you are at reading board textures and your opponents actions in relation to it. Is he drawing?, has he a made hand?, what does he think i have? that sort of thing. And then trusting your instincts! obviously u dont have hand, and all your trying to work out is your oppos! Its then down to getting your bet sizing right as to what you perceive his hand, or letting it go.
I appreciate there are tonns of factors that this little experiment neglets when looking at the big scheme of things within poker, and it narrows the arsenal of weapons you have at your disposal! Like meta game strats, icm's, 3 or 4 betting, all in strategies ect ect...
But i urge you to have ago yourself and try it! It will make you look at the game from another angle, and if you can incorporate these little snippets into your game, when you actually have cards, you will be a better player, and that is what we all strive for i suppose!
Hope i didnt bore you too much, but thort i better contribute to the forum abit, instead of just reading every one elses post and not doing any thinking of my own!
Dan
After a discussion i had with a mate, and remembering the annette obrestad example, i thort id give it a go.
So, the idea was to cover my hole cards using post it notes! i had the lobby up at the same time so i could see chip counts ect...
The aim of this, was to see just how far i could go in a sit and go using only position, any reads i could pick up on other players, betting patterns and tendencies, that sort of thing.
So the first game i played was a £5.50 scary. Top 2 paid jobby.
Obviously this is a fast format, so no time to sit around. So the first thing i do is wait an orbit, look who plays every pot, who is tightish (i know 1 orbit isnt enough to gain this sort of info, but its all i had in this format!)
I then start raising every button, if theres a call and checked to me on flop, if the board is dry and doesnt look like it hit them, i cbet, generally the c bet will get thru. If not, i would evaluate on the turn. If there were draws out there such as flush/straights i mite fire if the turn and river misses, but generally i give up the pot if a scare cards hit or its obv the guy isnt drawing.
I also decided that any 'donk' bet would be immediately raised, just out of principle!
If it was limped round to the sb and they limped into my bb i would auto raise and c bet if called.
It is surprising how much you can pick up about opponents when you are solely focusing on them and disregarding your cards completely.
It made me focus on the situations that were arising. 2 limps from late position into my bb i decide to shove to steal. All oppos fold. Do we do that if we look at our hand and its 83off? Our cards are irrelevent really, but it makes it much harder to do!
Another example was when an aggro player limped in first position, sb made up, im in the bb. I could shove here and try and pick up the pot like before, but why has this player limped utg? he usually aggro, and ive just made the same move on my last bb. i check and fold the flop, so does sb, and utg shows kk. Do i have this read if im playin 8 tables and just playing abc poker? It would be hard.
So any way, in the end i raise the button again and the bb ships. Now this is where i was stuck! obv i dont know my hand so how can i call? i hope i have 2 live cards as the bb is the short stack and his range is pretty wide, im getting a good price so i decide to call. he shows a4 i ad the monster that is 9 3 suited!!! his hand held up and im out in 3rd, one off the money!
I then play another, using the same tactics and i get heads up!! I raise every button, gain the chip lead, i notice that evrytime oppo min raises the button he must be weak, so i move in on him and he folds a few.
I have just over a 3-1 chip lead, and now any raise i make sets him in! This was where i obviously found a problem. eventually i need a hand to go to showdown! we ended up all in a few times when i got him low, but hed just double up, until eventually he won!
So, what did i achieve from this little experiment? (i appreciate that this isnt any sort of sample group to work with as it was only a couple of games!!!)
But by employing these tactics, does variance play a significant role in the overall outcome? If we dont know our own hand, and we only know situations that would be the same everytime (assuming we dont have to go to showdown)? such as a dym.
I think that low stakes DYM's would be the perfect game type for this type of strategy as you dont have to have a hand to eventually win. U can sit bak and let the others do the fighting, while you study their tendancies and try to exploit, whilst stealing the odd bb along the way to keep afloat.
This little experiment has tought me quiet alot. It has shown me how insignificant your cards actually are! I know its an old cliche but its true. I agree that if you are playing a tournament you will eventually need a hand, but you can quite easily go deep, just by exploiting situations, oppos betting patterns and tendencies and playing position well.
I was suprised at how much info you can gain on an oppo in such a short period of time, just by paying attention! i know it goes without saying, but many players dont look past their own cards! I knew from two orbits who not to bluff, who was weak passive and who was a rock, so when rock raises i fold, when passive limps i raise, and when the station is in i dont even bother! So with this info, how important are our cards?
It is also a good indicator of how good you are at reading board textures and your opponents actions in relation to it. Is he drawing?, has he a made hand?, what does he think i have? that sort of thing. And then trusting your instincts! obviously u dont have hand, and all your trying to work out is your oppos! Its then down to getting your bet sizing right as to what you perceive his hand, or letting it go.
I appreciate there are tonns of factors that this little experiment neglets when looking at the big scheme of things within poker, and it narrows the arsenal of weapons you have at your disposal! Like meta game strats, icm's, 3 or 4 betting, all in strategies ect ect...
But i urge you to have ago yourself and try it! It will make you look at the game from another angle, and if you can incorporate these little snippets into your game, when you actually have cards, you will be a better player, and that is what we all strive for i suppose!
Hope i didnt bore you too much, but thort i better contribute to the forum abit, instead of just reading every one elses post and not doing any thinking of my own!
Dan
Comments
Just shows that cards are insignificant sometimes!! Does this mean that you will no longer be multi tabling? lol
I presume you will not be using this tactic in Phase 2 of TP lol!! Gl to you in that as well by the way
Plus, it would stop bad beat stories...always good!
Most importantly it shows newbies that there are different layers of thinking in poker that delve way beyond the cards, and if they can hone this skill and keep it nice and safe in their poker arsenal then it will undoubtably be a huge step in the right direction!
Nice one Dan
x
I will have to give it a go and let you know how I get on.
I did a similar post some months ago on here, about the same thing. I'm not sure many took it serious at the time.
I started occasionally playing blind about 5 years ago when some regulars and myself, on the 1808 gang discussed this and had a little blind-tourney between ourselves. It's very good for improving positional play and aggression towards the weaker players. I went quite deep in a small tourney a couple of years ago playing blind. it was a cheap entry and quite challenging, although I removed the post-it note when we got to the FT. You learn a lot about your game when you try playing blind.
Everyone should give it a go. You'll surprise yourself I'm sure.
And you're right the cards are not as significant as most players think. Board texture, knowledge of your opponents and an understanding of inflection points in the game is vital.