Tricky spot with A6s on the BTN

markycash

This is from the VLV 2nd chance freeroll on Sunday.

Most definitely not intended to be a bad beat story I am long over the hand. I was just surprised that after 10 years + playing poker such an apparently straightforward hand (A suited ace on the BTN) could have me so torn as to what to do at the time.

I am also not trying to be results orientated. Yes I would probably have quickly forgotten the hand had I won, but the hand seemed interesting as we have a range of options on how to proceed.

The hand: I have A6 suited on the button 6 handed @ 500-1000 blinds. It folds around to me and I have 26k. The SB has 20k and the BB 13k. So what do we do?

The situation: I have a fairly average image as I have only joined the table 2 orbits ago. I have opened 2 pots for between 2-2.5x and the player who is in the BB has instantly 3 bet shoved on me both times. He has been active apart from that too. The SB has been playing standard ABC poker. There are 38 players left and 32 get paid.

I remember being dealt the hand and deciding to fold. I thought the player in the BB was likely to shove on any opening raise (as that is what they had been doing). I also didn't like the calling ranges I may face (especially from the SB) if I was to open shove this many chips. Due to the set-up I didn't fancy getting half my stack in with such a marginal hand, the only hands I would be 'crushing' would be <A5 but many of these would result in split pots.

After I decided this as the cards were dealt, one of the early position players tanked and during that time I decided I wasn't folding an ace on the BTN to the BB who had 3bet shipped on my opening raises twice. I mean what am I waiting for if I fold again? So I open for 2k and as expected the BB ships on me and I snap call (when I decided to play into the player preflop I was never folding preflop to them) I only opened small as I was folding or 4 betting if the SB 3 bets.

Anyways the BB has Q4, hits the Q and my stack goes into the danger zone and I don't recover. Not important and am long over the hand as mentioned but what would you do in this spot?

I know exactly what I would do now after reflecting on the hand but will keep quiet about this and see if others wish to give their thoughts.

weecheez1

lol unless you are playing a refugee thats just joined sky you dont have an average image but to the hand i think you were right would you of folded if the small blind shoved if so i would of done exactly the same just ul

benc

Mr call sounds like its the better option as opposed to mr folding or open folding with how you describe oppo in the bb and i guess we are too deep to open jam? can mr with plan to call a jam against bb and fold against sb 3bet jam, especially if we are playing for the win i think taking a close but +ev spot like this is ok? I'm a HU player so mtt play isn't a strongpoint, with specific dynamics and with action folded round could limping the button not be a potential option with plan to call a nai raise from bb and possibly even a squeeze jam with sb unlikely to complete with a hand strong enough to call bb jam, whereas we are under repped and would probably be +ev against bb range (may even be wider thinking the limp and sb complete is dead money), only thing about this hand not being results oriented is if we had raised twice and been snap 3bet jam on i'd be conscious of the fact he may have tightened up his 3bet jamming range (although this wasn't the case) but still an important factor i think. 

Just realised what effective stacks were, open jamming would actually be fine as well in this spot imo but would say mr calling is defo best option as it allows us to fold if we believe sb would only jam a tight range and snap bb's shallow stack wide range.

jordz16

from how you described the hand and opponent it sounds as if you played it fine given that its a tournament that is all about winning..

I cant remember what the min cash was, but the only way i would be folding is if the mincash meant a lot to my bankroll.

Angmar2626

In Response to Re: Tricky spot with A6s on the BTN:

from how you described the hand and opponent it sounds as if you played it fine given that its a tournament that is all about winning.. I cant remember what the min cash was, but the only way i would be folding is if the mincash meant a lot to my bankroll.
Posted by jordz16

This. You induced him into shoving on you with a range that you do very well indeed against. Just unlucky. 

IMO if he's reshoving Q4o think about how wide a range we can assign him here, and how well A6s does v that. We can give him all Ks, all Qs, probably all Js, probably T9, T8, T7, T6? 98? 97? 87? suited connectors, suited gappers, etc. Maybe even much wider than this? If he thinks he can print chips by repeating the same 3bet on you every time then why not atc? Also, I think against some players you can discount the top of their range in this spot - if he has JJ+/AQ+ and you've been folding to reshoves, lots of players more likely to try and get some value from their hand rather than start worrying about balanced ranges. If so, A6s even more of a snap call. Just my 2 cents'.

Incidentally I have a similar-ish toublesome hand with ATs - can post it here or start new thread if you don't want this thread hijacking?

markycash

In Response to Re: Tricky spot with A6s on the BTN:

In Response to Re: Tricky spot with A6s on the BTN : This. You induced him into shoving on you with a range that you do very well indeed against. Just unlucky.  IMO if he's reshoving Q4o think about how wide a range we can assign him here, and how well A6s does v that. We can give him all Ks, all Qs, probably all Js, probably T9, T8, T7, T6? 98? 97? 87? suited connectors, suited gappers, etc. Maybe even much wider than this? If he thinks he can print chips by repeating the same 3bet on you every time then why not atc? Also, I think against some players you can discount the top of their range in this spot - if he has JJ+/AQ+ and you've been folding to reshoves, lots of players more likely to try and get some value from their hand rather than start worrying about balanced ranges. If so, A6s even more of a snap call. Just my 2 cents'. Incidentally I have a similar-ish toublesome hand with ATs - can post it here or start new thread if you don't want this thread hijacking?
Posted by Angmar2626

Feel free to post Angmar

I have to say, some thoroughly excellent replies.

I had in mind what would have been the optimal play (in hinsight) when I made the post. I am reconsidering that though. Will sleep on it

Thanks for the cracking replies folks!

Angmar2626

Cheers! Probably more straightforward than yours but it left me wondering for a few days, and not 100% sure which option I'd take if it came up again:

The hand! ATs utg 15bb. Average stack at table 25-30bb - everyone has us covered.

The situation! Very first hand after the bubble has burst in one of the big daily 33BH. We've taken 3 min-bounties so our head prize is ok but less than average and not worth punting off a stack to gamble for IMO. That said, table has previously been calling all 10bb shoves with hands like A7o/J8s to hunt for bounties, even in spots where 10bb guy is going to be pushing stronger range than usual near bubble.

Do we:

-Fold - meh... nits...

-Raise/fold - seems pretty spewy on this stack size - burning 2bb from 15bb doesn't sound much fun

-Raise/call - other than the big blind, think their reshoving range should be narrower than their calling range as they can get overcalled by each other, so how often are we ahead? Also if big blind defends and we miss the flop, any size of cbet getting called is pretty hideous.

-Open shove - obvs less exploitable than other options but without antes is it worth risking 15bb to pick up the blinds? 10bb easy decision I think but I also think maybe 15bb narrows their calling range, and I don't know how many hands there are left that we'd like to be called by, out of all the possible hands they will call with. Then again, as with previous hand, we want to win the whole thing, so we can just yolo it and gamble to try and build a stack to reach the final table especially in this case having already made the min cash.

All thoughts appreciated!

hhyftrftdr

How long before the blinds increase? Seems a bit trivial but if they are about to go up, or just gone up, that can make our decision easier/harder.

The pay jumps when just in the money in the £33 BHs mains are negliable, someone's head prize can be worth 15 places in hard cash. As you'd previously seen on the table, people are spinning with marginal hands, so I think you can sometimes expect to get looked up by worse (Ax) if you shove. The flipside of that is of course we also get called when we are crushed.

15bb on Sky with no antes is short but not in micro territory just yet.

I hate to fence sit but I think its close between jamming, raising and folding. If the table is passive and a m/r can get through then that could be optimal, the tendencies of the blinds would have to be factored in.

Think there are good arguments for any course of action....damn this fence is comfy

Edit...doubling up increases our bounty equity massively, can only double up by getting them chips in the middle....

MattBates

Surely limping the button is better than folding?

Angmar2626

In Response to Re: Tricky spot with A6s on the BTN:

How long before the blinds increase? Seems a bit trivial but if they are about to go up, or just gone up, that can make our decision easier/harder. The pay jumps when just in the money in the £33 BHs mains are negliable, someone's head prize can be worth 15 places in hard cash. As you'd previously seen on the table, people are spinning with marginal hands, so I think you can sometimes expect to get looked up by worse (Ax) if you shove. The flipside of that is of course we also get called when we are crushed. 15bb on Sky with no antes is short but not in micro territory just yet. I hate to fence sit but I think its close between jamming, raising and folding. If the table is passive and a m/r can get through then that could be optimal, the tendencies of the blinds would have to be factored in. Think there are good arguments for any course of action....damn this fence is comfy Edit...doubling up increases our bounty equity massively, can only double up by getting them chips in the middle....
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Ahhhh yeah ev of future bounties is huge. Fair point indeed!

Getting a min-raise through about as likely as the Megastack getting a playable structure

markycash

In Response to Re: Tricky spot with A6s on the BTN:

Surely limping the button is better than folding?
Posted by MattBates

Well what I thought was optimal after reflection touches upon this point.

My thoughts on the hand...

I wasn't being at all results orientated and the fact I lost the hand is really just a side issue which made the hand stand out. I thought it was interesting due to (a) the range of options we have and (b) the fact the hand may divide opinion. I therefore posted it and was very interested to listen to any opinions and give them consideration.

I decided after the hand that I should have opened near the miximum size of a standard open to send a more clear signal to the BB (the altering of the bet size mostly due to sack sizes and position, not hand hand strength). If this is too large then it is obviously open to being exploited by the SB who can 3bet us (not worried about the BB as there is no version of me opening/folding in this spot preflop to this player with 13 BB's). I therefore came to the conclusion that an open for 3k (snap calling anything the BB does but probably folding to the SB as they haven't got out of line thus far). 

If we are flat called, what we do on the flop would depend on the actual flop (there wouldn't be too many versions of me folding though). I would hope that position then becomes a factor. I think if we open for 3k versus 2k we more often get uncontested chips to pad to our stack. Although I do still think the BB is shipping a fair amount of the time even when we open for 3x. At least we have made uncontested chips more likely without leaving ourselves exposed for stacks in situations where the SB wakes up with a hand if we had just shipped it in.

If we flat the button as Matt mentions then I feel this player in the BB just jams on us more often than when we miniraise. These are obviously purely my subjective thoughts and maybe if we flat we give the SB odds to flat and the BB is thrown and checks behind. We then have position postflop and maybe we either flop the world or outplay our opponent postflop. I think this is a rather optimistic view of what would happen though. I think we leave ourselves open to the SB and the BB making a play at us and even if they don't we haven't defined our hand well and won't know where we stand post flop.

Now if you are suggesting flatting to then 3bet anyone making a play at us then that is quite interesting! Would need to think that one over, in particular what sort of ranges would raise our limp and if we could fold them out with a 3bet. It is also quite interesting if we are happy to get it in with the BB here and want this scenario. If he smells a rat and checks we get to play postflop in position but if he jams then we can iso shove and take him on.

Anyways, I came to that conclusion... open for 3k, call any shoves from the BB and fold or reraise and plays from the SB (probably fold).

My conclusion is based upon trying to pick up uncontested chips, however, as is correctly mentioned ITT... Should we be wanting to get half our stack in versus the BB's range with A6s here if we are going for the win? (which I was). In all honesty I am still not sure. I think I personally marginally prefer to use these chips to make some 3bets if the table lets me get away with it. If there were antes then I may sway to wanting to just get the BB's stack in here.

Would be happy to hear anyones thoughts on the open to 3k if they are willing to share

I am also re-evaluating the conclusion I came to based upon the points brought up.

Again many thanks for the brilliant considered replies ITT!

benc

Having another go at this as found it quite interesting, even though i don't really reference any factors like folding because you can utilise your stack better in future situations, not needing to take a marginal +ev spot because it's more +ev to be able to continue in the game with your current stack give you a better lower variance chance to exploit the current table, i do understand it probably sways decisions alot more for regular mtt players.

I actually think the points you have made about limping the button are arguments that support the play, if sb completes and bb checks behind we have an under repped hand that will play fine post flop with position so can make good decisions easily and utilise our post flop edge rather than being put in tougher high variance spots pre flop. Also if sb nai isos with 20bb eff we are happy to call and play post flop against a range we would of mr of 3x folded against and if bb nai isos we have two good options in either flatting or jamming (against a range we are head of) both of which i think would be fine if he is active aggro and we percieve him to have a wider range.

Also if we believe bb will jam on us wider if we limp than a 3bet jam range against a mr, we're almost inducing by limping with a6s and should be fist pump snapping if his range becomes even wider as our equity against that range as opposed to his 3bet jam range will be even better (i think?)

So worst case scenario we limp button sb jams and we possibly make a slightly -ev fold if they are capable enough to jam that spot fairly wide , majority of scenarios are good though if sb completes and bb checks we get to play post flop in position against two most likely weaker ranges of hands with a suited ace can utilise our post flop ability, or sb completes bb jams we snap against a wide range we have good equity against + the extra chips sb added to the pot.

I think mr button is still far more optimal than 3x button decision in that sb will most likely jam the same tight range that crushes us for 20bb as if we mr, so we lose 1bb more when we fold which we are doing either way so may as well save the 1bb, also bb may shove a tighter range that we are not in as good shape against and if we have decided we are calling a 3b jam whatever bb does we are just investing 1bb extra in order to take away weaker hands from his jamming range. 

So in this order i'd say i prefer LIMP (call bb ai, fld sb ai, call nai from both) > MR( call bb ai, fld sb ai)> 3x(call bb ai, fold sb ai)> Open fold.

From a more general point of view the only problem i think with limping the button we may become alot more exploitable against better regs if they see we pretty much never limp then when we do we turn up with a marginal hand which possibly makes our mr range weaker and more polarised? so can range us easier in future spots especially if we only mr in this spot with hands we are willing to get it in, so to incorporate some limps it maybe would mean mixing in some of the bottom and top of our range (as an example could add in like a 35s type hand that we may of open folded and jj type hand we would normally mr) which will make our ranges harder to define. (Not really an important consideration for this hand, but worth thinking about if spots occur regularly and we ever do limp playing alot of mtts on the site with regs that are capable of adjusting to what you're doing)

benc

Angmar i would be mr calling with 15bb just after the bubble, i think mr folding would be a mistake unless we have specific reads on table being particularly tight (which given the info on the gambles for bounties beforehand  i would say is actually further on the other end of the spectrum) or a situation arises where a player jams and someone calls (assuming the call is going to be a v strong range), which given we open the action we are able to to mr and be flexible with our decision making based on how the action goes, plenty of variables need to be taken into account that may also affect that decision but from personal experience i'd say peoples ranges are a bit wider after the bubble people are happy to have locked up a cash and are now willing to gamble a bit more for stacks. So taking this into account we will be flipping and dominating enough of a potential range to be happy getting it in here in a pretty good spot to double up and give us a much better chance to win the tournament than any other potential pre flop decision. 

So ranging in this spot worst case scenario is ak,aq,aj,aa,kk,qq,10,10 and we block all but jj,qq,kk, (of which we at least have an out and slightly better eq with our fd potential so not truly awful shape) whereas we are crushing a9>a2 k10>j10 beating kq/jq type hands slightly and just a slight % over flipping against all the 22>99 pocket pairs, which for 15bb we are ok with doing if we are going for the win (i think?). Plus we could be even more flexible with this range if we add random bounty gambles which makes the mr call even better. 

MR and going postflop is fine as well we have a strong suited hand with straight, flush and strong top pairs potential that dominate alot of calling ranges at these stacks and if the board doesnt run out well/don't flop any type of decent equity in a multiway pot we can are fine with just not cbetting and giving up. 

So yeah i would say mr is easily best option in this spot, would be interested to hear mtt regs opinion though as again i'm sure alot of other factors come into consideration that i don't consider from not really playing mtts.

markycash

In Response to Re: Tricky spot with A6s on the BTN:

Having another go at this as found it quite interesting, even though i don't really reference any factors like folding because you can utilise your stack better in future situations, not needing to take a marginal +ev spot because it's more +ev to be able to continue in the game with your current stack give you a better lower variance chance to exploit the current table, i do understand it probably sways decisions alot more for regular mtt players.

I actually think the points you have made about limping the button are arguments that support the play, if sb completes and bb checks behind we have an under repped hand that will play fine post flop with position so can make good decisions easily and utilise our post flop edge rather than being put in tougher high variance spots pre flop.

From a more general point of view the only problem i think with limping the button we may become alot more exploitable against better regs if they see we pretty much never limp then when we do we turn up with a marginal hand which possibly makes our mr range weaker and more polarised? 
Posted by benc

Some great points!

I have to agree the more I think about limping the BTN the more I like it. I do agree we would need to start limping a variety of hands in this situation so our range does not become more polarised against regs. Although this is one of the points that really is swaying me to the limp! I mean this basically means we get to play more hands in position which is always good

I do think BB ships more when we limp but as you highlight I think he does this with a wider range which we do even better against.

I think the idea of limping the BTN is really interesting and I think the fact I didn't even consider it highlights I need to drag my NLHE MTT game into 2017! The idea of limping the BTN just at face value seemed cringe worthy but it makes perfect sense. I also remember a top pro doing this at last years WSOP and doing very well (cannot remember who). It sparked a bit of discussion though and there was talk of limping the BTN being the new 2x for a variety of reasons, such as being able to 3bet/4bet more cheaply as the pot size had been controlled more.

I agree a 3x open would narrow the range which BB jams to one that we do not do just as well against (although we are probably still +ev). I think then we come back to the point Jordz made... What do we want from the hand/tourney, what is our plan? I think if we want uncontested chips then that supports a 3x open. If we want to get it in with the BB here then I would say the BTN limp or 2x is best. As there are no antes here, getting the BB and SB uncontested is less important. If there were antes then I think plays which just pick up uncontested chips more often have more weight.

I have changed my mind though due to the great replies ITT. I think the BTN limp actually offers the best of both worlds... A chance to play a small pot in position while at the same time widening the BB's jamming range to one we are likely to fair better against long term.

So I guess I will be throwing a lot more BTN limps into my play! But will I have A6s, 35s or JJ though? ;-)

Angmar2626

Some fun points! Few things we might want to consider:

(btw it's great how much discussion/difference of opinion this little hands has caused!)

wrt limping, I don't see why we think this widens BB shove range? As we're not in a HU pot, sb is often going to come along too to flick in half a bb, and shoving into two players I would think dramatically narrows his shoving range (especially considering how wide it was v 1 opponent). SB probably noticed aggro BB shoves too - who's to say he's not trapping by calling behind? If he wakes up with top of his range and you limp, isoing you gives BB more chance to escape, so SB range is essentially uncapped in this spot.

Whilst it's only slightly, all of your options here do change the size of the pot that BB is shoving into, so say you limp and the SB does fold, the reward for BB's risk in shoving is smaller now, which I also think narrows his range. So imo (and as I say, it's great that we've all got differeing opinions) limp/calling is worse than mr/calling.

limp/folding seems fine - as has been pointed out, it's saving you 1bb for the times when you decide to fold.

limping then playing postflop... in this scenario obvs it doesn't matter our stack size because eff stacks are 13bb. On 13bb and spr rapidly becoming what it is, what can we actually do with position here? Of course having postion is how you win at poker usually but with this spr what room do we have to use it? BB can check/shove so many flop textures here that it feels like advantage is almost with him! How many flops do we like other than Axx and flush draws? What are we doing on 9JQ? Or even worse if we get check/shoved on something we get a marginal piece of such as K6x or 26J?

If we're cbet/folding then we have to cbet quite small I think, otherwise it's just burning chips, and if we get called sometimes we can take an unimproved A high to showdown (if BB lets us which seems unlikely as checking back turn gives him great opportunity to shove river with his whole range and put us in dicey spots). Not to mention factoring SB into the hand also.

So I think limp/folding is fine, and limping hoping to see a flop that we smash is obviously good if we do hit.

Limp/rasing (back-raising) seems spewy on our/their stack sizes - can you ever imagine BB iso/folding 13bb? And you said SB was abc. With BB left to act is he ever really isoing as a bluff, or isoing and folding to our back-raise (which is what we want)??

Don't we WANT a polarised limping range to stop regs exploiting us?? Also, limping JJ occasionally to balance very specific spots like this is going to be good, but limping JJ regularly compared with ev of raising is not going to work out too well 

Jeez, might have to split this into 2 posts!

Angmar2626

If we did open hand like AJo and called his shove, our equtiy isn't drastically different from A6s (obviously it's better but not massively so). Would we think twice if we'd got AJ in against Q4 and lost? Probs just shrug it off as bad luck. Point being, do we really want to be conservatively protective over our 26bb stack? Blinds will go up shortly and direct bubble could even be 2 blind levels away yet. Not too sure how much room we have to 3bet/fold 26bb either. Looked up payouts for this game and 1st is 80x min cash... definitely worth giving some weight too. However, can also see the attraction of taking lower-variance spots, but limp/calling is also high variance

Great how much thought something like this hand can throw up! Would be fun to discuss any future hands at any point

Angmar2626

In Response to Re: Tricky spot with A6s on the BTN:

Angmar i would be mr calling with 15bb just after the bubble, i think mr folding would be a mistake unless we have specific reads on table being particularly tight (which given the info on the gambles for bounties beforehand  i would say is actually further on the other end of the spectrum) or a situation arises where a player jams and someone calls (assuming the call is going to be a v strong range), which given we open the action we are able to to mr and be flexible with our decision making based on how the action goes, plenty of variables need to be taken into account that may also affect that decision but from personal experience i'd say peoples ranges are a bit wider after the bubble people are happy to have locked up a cash and are now willing to gamble a bit more for stacks. So taking this into account we will be flipping and dominating enough of a potential range to be happy getting it in here in a pretty good spot to double up and give us a much better chance to win the tournament than any other potential pre flop decision.  So ranging in this spot worst case scenario is ak,aq,aj,aa,kk,qq,10,10 and we block all but jj,qq,kk, (of which we at least have an out and slightly better eq with our fd potential so not truly awful shape) whereas we are crushing a9 />a2 k10>j10 beating kq/jq type hands slightly and just a slight % over flipping against all the 22>99 pocket pairs, which for 15bb we are ok with doing if we are going for the win (i think?). Plus we could be even more flexible with this range if we add random bounty gambles which makes the mr call even better.  MR and going postflop is fine as well we have a strong suited hand with straight, flush and strong top pairs potential that dominate alot of calling ranges at these stacks and if the board doesnt run out well/don't flop any type of decent equity in a multiway pot we can are fine with just not cbetting and giving up.  So yeah i would say mr is easily best option in this spot, would be interested to hear mtt regs opinion though as again i'm sure alot of other factors come into consideration that i don't consider from not really playing mtts.
Posted by benc

Thanks for posting, took me a so long to realise what you meant by 'mr' lol. Thought you were creating fictional characters for each situtation! Mr Call and his enemy Mr Raise ha.

Agree with everything you've said, just wonder if the hands we do well against are marginally more likely to get it in if open shove? Pretty close though with table dynamics being what they are.

markycash

In Response to Re: Tricky spot with A6s on the BTN:

I don't see why we think this widens BB shove range? As we're not in a HU pot, sb is often going to come along too to flick in half a bb, and shoving into two players I would think dramatically narrows his shoving range 
Posted by Angmar2626

It depends how much credit we give to the BB as a player.

To me he has been happy to shove any spot with ATC when he thought we may be weak or that he has fold equity. If we limp the BTN there is 3k in the middle in an unraised pot. I got the impression that BB would look at this and instajam thinking they had fold equity on us (would be incorrect as I would be limp/calling if I limp the BTN in this exact spot). If we open for 2-3k then I would assume BB thinks he has less fold equity over us as it is less for us to call making him less likely to jam. Obviously 'less likely' is relative as I still think he is shoving so often on miniraises and quite often, but not just as frequently, shoving on 3x opens.

I also feel he is not going to factor the SB into the equation too much in an unraised pot if we limp the BTN. I totally agree with your point that the SB may have noticed the BB's play and simply limp monsters here hoping that the BB shoves and I try to isolate. I think giving the BB credit for thinking that I am limping x range and SB in then limping because he is setting something up is giving too much credit to the BB until they have shown they are factoring stuff like that into their thinking.

Plenty more good points mentioned, just in from uni though and head is already whizzing so will come back to it

Certainly has been an interesting discussion!

benc

I actually think open shoving from utg may make some hands like 22>55 a2>a7 think twice about calling from earlier position, although in all honesty i doubt an average table on sky in a bh just after bubble will change what range they will get in here whether we mr or open jam.

The limping situation in the markycash hand is so opponent dependent for the bb, so we have to rely on being as close to accurate as possible in what level we think oppo is working on, i'm working on the assumption it's a very aggro active basic level player who will put little consideration into whether ourselves or sb will be trapping or how they should widen or tighten range because of the amount of chips they can win uncontested pre, more the mindset that the button limp and sb limp is weak and he can just attack that weakness by shipping super wide and picking up some easy chips, hence giving him a range that we have very good equity to call an all in against. 

Yeah I don't get involved in the forum much these days and play HUsng as main game so don't really get to consider spots like this often but have enjoyed this thread.

fi33er

Yes!! I am learning so much from the good players on this site! I have enjoyed reading the posts and then reading the revised/rethought posts after! 

Such a simple spot but so much depth to it.

This is what i love about sky pokers site!

Angmar2626

In Response to Re: Tricky spot with A6s on the BTN:

Yes!! I am learning so much from the good players on this site! I have enjoyed reading the posts and then reading the revised/rethought posts after!  Such a simple spot but so much depth to it. This is what i love about sky pokers site!
Posted by fi33er

Don't listen to anything I say - I specialise in bubbling final tables

Will comment on any hands you feel like posting though, as I'm sure will others

SkootaT

We probably dont want to raise call with ICM considerations in play A6s whilst ahead of villans any two range A6s just isn't strong enough to want to induce 4(?) off the money.

Think I'd just pile it in and try take some of the fold equity, most villans may be reshoving wide but probably aren't going to call off with 0 fold equity and a hand like Q4o.

We have all the pressure by monkey shoving, SB/BB probably have pretty tight ranges to call off but by just raising and facing a jam we actually get the pressure back on us, we most likley still have a profitable call if hes jamming any two but I think it'll be alot closer.

This should be easy to calculate the answer though using a program like ICMizer, if you remember stacks etc.

Even if vil is calling off super wide we dont lose anything by just monkey shoving instead of raise calling, Make sense you dont want to lose a 40k pot to SB but you just open yourself up to making mistakes: 

To speak more generally here, I don't prescribe to the ethos that no one is playing correctly and SB is only rejamming bladed. Sure I wouldn't raise call SB in this particular spot (esp because alot of people aren't shoving any worse hands here), but you put yourself in a spot where a good player will punish you in these types of spots. I.E. SB reshoves 44's profitably with fold equity when he may need to fold them facing a shove from BTN. So if you do a calculation and find NE solution to be monkey shove but you want to reduce your varience/increase edge and you make assumptions about people your playing against it may work slightly better for certain games and certain oponnents but long term and as you go up stakes the guessing game of is this player good enough to reshove here wide enough will eventually come back to bite you, esp when you have a completely profitable (maybe more profitable?) unexplotable alternative, also if you explotiatively adjust to tight players by raise folding here all the time instead of just making profitable pushes, you wont ever get to learn a proper push strategy for when you are against players who you deem that you cant exploitatively raise fold to.

To illustrate I plugged in a a similar couple values for a 3 off the money type situation, you can see here the sort of thing I was trying to explain, I dont think you raise btn as wide as 38% because your name aint StayOrGo but look at the hands SB can reshove here but cant call off. We are losing money against competent players because we have to fold alot to his reshove to hands which couldn't call off! when we didn't have to get into this situation at all!

I also cant get behind the thought that our edge is so great in soft feilds that we can avoid taking these monkey shove spots. Not only do we allow SB to take some of our EV back, you give BB some too with a profitable stop and go spot with many many hands which put us in tricky spots post in which he easily gets to realise all of his equity by GII with pairs etc, there is not much edge to had when villan can profitably call pre and simply press all in when he makes a pair! IMO we are overestimating our edge by not taking this particular shove and denying equity with the extra ICM pressure.

Kevilfish

markycash:

I'd min-raise button/snap the shove. You're unlucky if he has a hand that crushes you, he's made that move twice before, he maybe had better hands those two times but seen two folds so could open his range against your raises, especially a button raise. I'd be happy to flip for half my stack knowing you're going to be ahead most of the time. If you jam the button, you only get called by a hand that leaves you 25%-30% underdog. You're potentially risking 75% of your stack to win 1.5bb's. The bb has shoved your last 2 raises, if you shove, it takes all his bluffs away.

Angmar2626:

I'd shove AT, there's only 8 hands that you're worse than 50/50 against. If it's a table that has been calling loose, you're getting called by hands your crushing/ahead, a good chance to double to 30bb's. You're in the money, nothing to lose. Without antes, in a non-BH tournament, 15bb's is probably too much to jam, but with the added incentive of your bounty, you're getting called by worse in this format. Even if you get 5 folds, you win your blinds for the next 2 hands.

Angmar2626

In Response to Re: Tricky spot with A6s on the BTN:

We probably dont want to raise call with ICM considerations in play A6s whilst ahead of villans any two range A6s just isn't strong enough to want to induce 4(?) off the money. Think I'd just pile it in and try take some of the fold equity, most villans may be reshoving wide but probably aren't going to call off with 0 fold equity and a hand like Q4o. We have all the pressure by monkey shoving, SB/BB probably have pretty tight ranges to call off but by just raising and facing a jam we actually get the pressure back on us, we most likley still have a profitable call if hes jamming any two but I think it'll be alot closer. This should be easy to calculate the answer though using a program like ICMizer, if you remember stacks etc. Even if vil is calling off super wide we dont lose anything by just monkey shoving instead of raise calling, Make sense you dont want to lose a 40k pot to SB but you just open yourself up to making mistakes:  To speak more generally here, I don't prescribe to the ethos that no one is playing correctly and SB is only rejamming bladed. Sure I wouldn't raise call SB in this particular spot (esp because alot of people aren't shoving any worse hands here), but you put yourself in a spot where a good player will punish you in these types of spots. I.E. SB reshoves 44's profitably with fold equity when he may need to fold them facing a shove from BTN. So if you do a calculation and find NE solution to be monkey shove but you want to reduce your varience/increase edge and you make assumptions about people your playing against it may work slightly better for certain games and certain oponnents but long term and as you go up stakes the guessing game of is this player good enough to reshove here wide enough will eventually come back to bite you, esp when you have a completely profitable (maybe more profitable?) unexplotable alternative, also if you explotiatively adjust to tight players by raise folding here all the time instead of just making profitable pushes, you wont ever get to learn a proper push strategy for when you are against players who you deem that you cant exploitatively raise fold to. To illustrate I plugged in a a similar couple values for a 3 off the money type situation, you can see here the sort of thing I was trying to explain, I dont think you raise btn as wide as 38% because your name aint StayOrGo but look at the hands SB can reshove here but cant call off. We are losing money against competent players because we have to fold alot to his reshove to hands which couldn't call off! when we didn't have to get into this situation at all! I also cant get behind the thought that our edge is so great in soft feilds that we can avoid taking these monkey shove spots. Not only do we allow SB to take some of our EV back, you give BB some too with a profitable stop and go spot with many many hands which put us in tricky spots post in which he easily gets to realise all of his equity by GII with pairs etc, there is not much edge to had when villan can profitably call pre and simply press all in when he makes a pair! IMO we are overestimating our edge by not taking this particular shove and denying equity with the extra ICM pressure.
Posted by SkootaT

If we're trying to be unexploitable in these spots don't we have to open shove top of our range as well? Otherwise we become super capped. Open shoving TT+ for 26bb and no antes does not sound fun, when like you say, icm pressure is on them when we shove.

Not arguing - genuinely interested in your thoughts

Photos still pending approval so that will probably answer anyway once can see them

Angmar2626

In Response to Re: Tricky spot with A6s on the BTN:

markycash: I'd min-raise button/snap the shove. You're unlucky if he has a hand that crushes you, he's made that move twice before, he maybe had better hands those two times but seen two folds so could open his range against your raises, especially a button raise. I'd be happy to flip for half my stack knowing you're going to be ahead most of the time. If you jam the button, you only get called by a hand that leaves you 25%-30% underdog. You're potentially risking 75% of your stack to win 1.5bb's. The bb has shoved your last 2 raises, if you shove, it takes all his bluffs away. Angmar2626: I'd shove AT, there's only 8 hands that you're worse than 50/50 against. If it's a table that has been calling loose, you're getting called by hands your crushing/ahead, a good chance to double to 30bb's. You're in the money, nothing to lose. Without antes, in a non-BH tournament, 15bb's is probably too much to jam, but with the added incentive of your bounty, you're getting called by worse in this format. Even if you get 5 folds, you win your blinds for the next 2 hands.
Posted by Kevilfish

ty for thoughts! Agreed

SkootaT

In Response to Re: Tricky spot with A6s on the BTN:

In Response to Re: Tricky spot with A6s on the BTN : If we're trying to be unexploitable in these spots don't we have to open shove top of our range as well? Otherwise we become super capped. Open shoving TT+ for 26bb and no antes does not sound fun, when like you say, icm pressure is on them when we shove. Not arguing - genuinely interested in your thoughts Photos still pending approval so that will probably answer anyway once can see them
Posted by Angmar2626

Well it's only about 14/15 BB effective so shoving all of our playing range is definetly reasonable but i'd be inducing TT(99 probably)+.

AFAIK it's not a spot where we care about being capped at all, it doesn't make us exploitable knowing we dont open push TT+. It's like open pushing 16BB OTB with 77. We'd never do that with AA but it doesn't change the math of the situation. Im probably still pushing hands with mediocre equity postflop against a random hand but good equity against a calling range i.e. AK-Jo etc.

The only thing you'd need to worry about being exploited is if you are inducing TT+ to balance it with some raise folds with more marginal holdings otherwise people can fold strong holdings which would call a shove (I.E. similar to somone who only minraises AA/KK with like 9BB in an attempt to make it as obvious as possible :P and shoves the rest of his range), Taking hands you cannot shove profitably and cannot raise call profitably and raise folding them to balance your induces should turn those holdings into profit aswell.

What I cannot get down with is taking a profitable open shove and turning it into an unprofitable raise call or a probably less profitable raise fold. The profitability of raise folding/raise calling is very player dependent and therefore in my eyes you should not have a default strategy which is losing when you guess incorrectly the type of player you are playing against. If you want to play all your range as a raise here I think you definetly lose alot of EV by allowing reshoves/flop stop and goes instead of playing a small portion of your range polarly that includes hands you cant normally open shove profitably and hands that are nutted.

I definetly think raise calling is good here, you dont need to shove everything but A6s is just not good enough imo