Interesting situation?

Talon

 Was watching a 2/4 no limit table last night when this happened.Would be interested to hear other peoples assessment of it before i tell you mine.


  We go to the flop 4 handed and was very little in the pot.

The flop comes down 6s 8h 9h
A guy in mid position then goes allin for about £6
A guy in late position calls for most of his remaining stack.
The hands get turned over and the mid position guy shows 10h 7h x x
   The guy in late position shows    10 7 x x  all black.

  The heart comes in and the mid position guy wins a big pot.

 Please feel free to give your opinion on the way the hand was played and we will see if anyone agrees with me.

MereNovice

Without knowing the table dynamics, I'd say that the all-in is non-optimal. I'd only expect to get called by someone with the nuts and a re-draw (i.e. a better flush draw or a set). I'd want to try to get some money out of anyone with a draw.
I guess that all the money was likely to go in piecemeal on that flop anyway.

I'd fold the nuts with no "extensions" after that bet.

Tikay10

Nice Post Colin.

For those not familiar with Omaha, it's not at all unusual to have to fold the nuts on the flop, but if you can't improve, if you have no extensions, & the betting gets heavy in a multi-way Pot, it's often right to fold. It IS a drawing game, & that's not widely realised.

DOHHHHHHH

I thought this was £2/£4 at first! lol...

Well u asked me to have a look at this, so Ill show my naivety, and maybe even stupidity, and say I not gonna fold the nuts on the flop noooo way!

I cant grasp this game, I really cant. Hardly played at all for 6 weeks but before that I did spend a week or so trying to learn it properly. I didn't seen to get anywhere though, I find it hard to si at a table and feel confident Ive got the beating of the oppo's , coz Idn't really know the skills I need to have the beating of them....just seems really hit n miss.

After tp finishes, (4 me) Im gonna try and crack it again.

I really think I need to read a book on it though to properly understand.

Bk to the ??? - flopping the nuts then folding just isn't gonna happen with my mindset!

DOHH

Cowgomoo

In Response to Re: Interesting situation?:

Nice Post Colin. For those not familiar with Omaha, it's not at all unusual to have to fold the nuts on the flop, but if you can't improve, if you have no extensions, & the betting gets heavy in a multi-way Pot, it's often right to fold. It IS a drawing game, & that's not widely realised.
Posted by Tikay10

I'm going to have to disagree here, I think you should never be folding the nuts on the flop, maybe if its like 5 way and everyones going mad, even then its marginal.

MereNovice

In Response to Re: Interesting situation?:

In Response to Re: Interesting situation? : I'm going to have to disagree here, I think you should never be folding the nuts on the flop, maybe if its like 5 way and everyones going mad, even then its marginal.
Posted by Cowgomoo

In  this situation, let's assume that there is 20p in the pot before the flop.
The guy has bet £6 so, if we assume that he has the nuts, we are paying £6 to win 10p. I think that it is safe to assume that our opponent will have the nuts after betting that much on the flop.
We will lose every time that the flush draw hits so it would be a VERY bad call, imho.
Assuming that we have no runner, runner draws for a flush or a better straight then we will split the pot something like 60% and lose it 40% of the time.
It is extremely -EV to call.

MereNovice

I forgot to factor in the rake.
On a pot of that size there will be a rake of 60p so you're going to lose money even if you split the pot.
It's looking a pretty bad call now, isn't it?  :-)

Cowgomoo

In Response to Re: Interesting situation?:

I forgot to factor in the rake. On a pot of that size there will be a rake of 60p so you're going to lose money even if you split the pot. It's looking a pretty bad call now, isn't it?  :-)
Posted by MereNovice

Not really, been a long time since I played microstakes, but from what I can recall it doesnt take the nuts for some one to be shoving the flop, not matter how small the pot is. I think any sets/draws may be doing this.

beaneh

In Response to Re: Interesting situation?:

In Response to Re: Interesting situation? : I'm going to have to disagree here, I think you should never be folding the nuts on the flop, maybe if its like 5 way and everyones going mad, even then its marginal.
Posted by Cowgomoo

Tikay is completely right.

Oftentimes when you are playing deep stacked relative to the blinds, situations will arise on the flop where it is clear you are chopping at best, in these situations when you have risked maybe only 5-10big blinds it is better for you to just fold ze nuts and be -10bbs for the hand, rather than put another 300 bbs in and find that yay we both have the nuts, but zomg you can hit any heart or x or y, and actually you are losing money on the hand every time. Sickening game sometimes but it can also make you feel like an absolute hero!!

In omaha you want to be playing hands that can make nuts with redraws, not just getting it in whenever you have the nuts.

MereNovice

In Response to Re: Interesting situation?:

In Response to Re: Interesting situation? : Not really, been a long time since I played microstakes, but from what I can recall it doesnt take the nuts for some one to be shoving the flop, not matter how small the pot is. I think any sets/draws may be doing this.
Posted by Cowgomoo

I think risking £6 on a hunch that someone has shoved £6 to win 20p on a draw is just a bit -EV and definitely not the play for me. This is Omaha, not HE and I'd be happy to give my opponent credit for having the type of hand that he has. It really doesn't matter to me if this is 4NLO or 400NLO.

If we got really lucky and he was doing this with a draw, then even if he only has the flush draw we are only 60/40.
If he has the flush draw and a set then we are only 30% to win the pot.

Talon

  Ok i let this run for a few days and now i will give my assessment of it.

  First of all the guy in late position has very little invested in the pot so this needs to be considered.He has hit the nuts but now he has a dead hand and therefore does not want to see a turn or river because the likelyhood of a bad card is great.

 So what would be the shoving range of the guy in mid position. We must assume that he is not a fool and shoving with just an overpair.His range for this shove would be nut straight,flush draw or top set. He is a small favourite against the latter 2 and splitting with the first unless it is has extensions.A call of that size for a split pot is a losing play because of the rake so we can only consider calling against the other 2.Against either of those 2 hands i do not believe it is worth a call because we can find much better situations further down the line to get our money in as a big favourite.

  The one thing that noone has mentioned is that we have to consider the possibility that our opponent may be on all 3 of those hands, holding 10h 9 9 7h.Against that we would be in such bad shape.In this hand we would be calling a vast proportion of our money off hoping to hit runner runner blank cards and have our oponent not having the same straight as us.

  Folding the nuts is not easy and never should be but in this instance without even knowing our opponents cards i would say it is as close to an instafold as you can have whilst holding the nuts.

  On a further note i would call a pot sized bet at this point and if i had this and in Holdem i would instacall.


  Whilst observing the table i typed into the chatbox that the guy should have folded with his dead hand and received quite a bit of flak for my assesment. The derision i received and the call itself all came from holdem thinking where the nuts is a sacred cow that must be played for your entire stack at all times.Hopefully the people on the table and involved in the hand will have seen this thread and it will help to better their understanding of the game of omaha and more importantly how holdem thinking will just cost money at the omaha tables.

 

Tikay10

There are NUMEROUS Omaha situations where you must consider folding the Nuts on the flop if you have no re-draws or extensions. Over the long-term, in Omaha, you will go busto unless you recognize this. It's NOT Hold Em, it's OMAHA.

Here's the flopped nuts.

8c-9s-2h-3d

The flop has come.....

5d-6d-7s

So we have the absolute nuts.

If we are against.......

8d-9h-Tc-Js

And.....

Ad-As-8s-9d.....

WE ARE DRAWING DEAD TO WIN - we CANNOT win this coup! At best, if we dodge every out, we can chop it. And why would anyone gamble the shop on a chop?

And that example is not that unusual at all - Omaha is quite specifically a drawing game.

More people - a LOT more people - go skinto in Omaha than in Hold Em. It's a bankroll graveyard.

Many people play Omaha as they would play roulette - "let's gamble" they say, as they pump it up pre, every hand, as they are never far behind pre-flop. On the flop, it's different. So when Lairy Larry raises every hand pre, the Steady Eddies always call to take a flop, then just pick off Larry when they catch the right flop.

You can make money fast in Omaha playing like Larry. And lose it even faster when Eddie turns up.