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Multiples

Phantom66Phantom66
edited July 2017 in Betting Chat
Hi all.

I am trying out some multiple bets for the first time today.

All new to me but thanks to google I now know what a Lucky 15, Lucky 31, Yankee and Super Yankee (aka Canadian) are and I have worked how to place them.

I thought it might spice up my interest on Jackpot live days, especially as I spend longer than usual looking through the form of more races and the Jackpot syndicate post alot of valuable info here too. Lastly I thought if the Jackpot syndicate have a good day, this way I may benefit financially too.

So here goes (all at min stake)

Lucky 15 w/o

De Bruyne Horse (Win), G K Chesterton (Win), Brorocco (Lost), Rhodedendron (lost)

Made a profit thanks to the double

Lucky 15 ew

Zap(Lost), Spring Offensive(Lost), Journey (Lost), Horseplay (Lost)

Complete blank

Lucky31 ew

De Bruyne Horse (Won) , Journey (Lost), Brorocco (Lost), Horseplay (Lost) , True Valour (Lost)

A bit of damage limitation

With the 4 places in 2 races I have also added an ew double of Mutakarez(Lost) and Sobetsu (Lost)

Does anyone have any tips for these type of bets? Merits of a Yankee v a Lucky 15 etc?

Also is it possible to do a perm with say 2 horses from the same race (like you can a placepot) but getting the odds for the individual selections?


OK So based on a sample of 1 meeting, Maybe I should stick to a Lucky 15 for now and go with 4 well fancied horses on a Jackpot day.
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    robalanxxxrobalanxxx
    edited June 2017
    my advice to you would be look at the market movers on atr website find 3 horses all big price market movers and back them in a  e.w trixie small stakes if you win double your stakes for your next bet g.l.
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    edrichedrich
    edited June 2017
    Hi Phantom66,

    With double the odds for one winner , and a 10% bonus for all four winners as an industry standard, the Lucky 15 is the best multiple bet for value. Treble the odds is still available if you shop around.

    Perms are available as below,

    Yankee: 2 selections in 1 race 18 bets
                                  2 races 29 bets
                                  3 races 46 bets
                                  4 races 72 bets

    Lucky 15: 2 selections in 1 race 23 bets 
                                    2 races 35 bets 
                                    3 races 53 bets 
                                    4 races 80 bets

    So as you can see, the stakes can get pretty prohibitive as you add each selection. There doesn't seem to be perm Yankee and Lucky 15 options online. You can do the Yankee by breaking it down into its component parts. With the Lucky 15 you may have to bet by phone, as if you break it down, you won't get the bonuses.

    Hope this helps,
                         Ed.
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    Phantom66Phantom66
    edited June 2017

    Thanks ed, that's useful info.

    I have checked the sky terms and for the lucky 15 they do offer double odds on a single and 10% for all 4 winners.

    I am not a serious punter so I do not have multiple accounts and place most of my bets here (yes I know I am losing value).

    The thought behind the perm was in larger fields, especially with extra places on offer, I might want to pick 2 selections on an ew multiple bet.

    So say there are 2 EPRs in a meeting I would want to be able to pick 2 horses in those and add 2 smaller field races where I only back one horse.

    I am only betting very small to try these out at the moment so 35 bets isn't too prohibitive, especially if I am only trying this occasionally and have plenty of singles at the same meeting to spread the risk.

    @rob thanks for posting. I am not sure I understand your logic in doubling stakes after a win? I suppose if all goes well for a few attempts you can spin up very quickly. I keep all stakes small at the moment.


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    Phantom66Phantom66
    edited June 2017
    Trying 2xlucky15s, 

    win only

    Emenem, Laugh Aloud, Cracksman, Shraaoh

    e/w

    Emenem, Czabo, Best Solution, Green Light
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    Red_KingRed_King
    edited June 2017
    Hi phantom 66,
    I'm new to this also, I like to play the sky Super6 on the footy.
    There is an icon on the mobile skypoker site for (sporting Life PICK7)
    It offers 7 fold accumulator for free with a big prize, like Super6.
    But u also get options to place variable multiple options as real bets.

    I've picked my 7 for today, but with 35 x trebles & ew accumulator


    Edit:14:58, two races down, two placed, here's hoping!
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    Phantom66Phantom66
    edited June 2017
    Hi Red, Yes I have started going for the Pick7. MickyBlue started a skypoker league on there if you are interested?

    Todays picks, 1st 2 mainly from own selections and the last from the combined force of the jackpot syndicate. Had to place now as going out so not all their info available.

    Lucky 15 ew

    An Fear Ciuin, Witness in Court, Colla Pier, Work Du Breteau

    Lucky 15 w

    Jimmy Breekie, Always on the Run, Beeves, Dubai Devlis

    Lucky 15 w

    Magic Money, Attest, Chittu, Dubai Devils
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    Phantom66Phantom66
    edited June 2017
    Actually a made a profit today.

    Jimmy Breekie (2/1) and Beeves (12/1) win double the main provider

    With a place double for An Fear Ciuin (8/1) and Work Du Breteau (13/2)

    and a win for Attest (10/3) doubled cutting the losses in the other 2 bets.

    I will probably take a break until the next big meeting with a £250k pick7 prize or another live jackpot attempt.
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    unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited June 2017
    MATE would you have made more of a profit with the singles like you was doing or the multiples?

    for me i like to bet trixie which is 3 doubles and a treble. im on a losing streak atm tho which is getting on my nerves a tad. but thats prob because im working far to much and sleep deprived.

    i do like the horses you back as you look for better odds horses with very good results. 

    wish you luck 

    micky
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    wynne1938wynne1938
    edited June 2017
    The bet the bookies do not like is the Patent. 3 selections. 7 bets
    My favourite bet.
    3 singles
    3 doubles
     1 treble

    depending on prices do it win only or ew
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    Tikay10Tikay10
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Multiples:
    Thanks ed, that's useful info. I have checked the sky terms and for the lucky 15 they do offer double odds on a single and 10% for all 4 winners. I am not a serious punter so I do not have multiple accounts and place most of my bets here (yes I know I am losing value). The thought behind the perm was in larger fields, especially with extra places on offer, I might want to pick 2 selections on an ew multiple bet. So say there are 2 EPRs in a meeting I would want to be able to pick 2 horses in those and add 2 smaller field races where I only back one horse. I am only betting very small to try these out at the moment so 35 bets isn't too prohibitive, especially if I am only trying this occasionally and have plenty of singles at the same meeting to spread the risk. @rob thanks for posting. I am not sure I understand your logic in doubling stakes after a win? I suppose if all goes well for a few attempts you can spin up very quickly. I keep all stakes small at the moment.
    Posted by Phantom66
    Have a read of this, Mark;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martingale_(betting_system

    Am not dissing Rob, good luck to him if it works, but my advice to you would be DO NOT GO THERE.

    In addition to the risks explained in that Wiki page, if your bookmaker suddenly restricts you (or closes your account) after you have lost 6 or 8 n a row, you are in a world of pain now.
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    MISTY4MEMISTY4ME
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Multiples:
    Hi Red, Yes I have started going for the Pick7. MickyBlue started a skypoker league on there if you are interested? Todays picks, 1st 2 mainly from own selections and the last from the combined force of the jackpot syndicate. Had to place now as going out so not all their info available. Lucky 15 ew An Fear Ciuin, Witness in Court, Colla Pier, Work Du Breteau Lucky 15 w Jimmy Breekie, Always on the Run, Beeves, Dubai Devlis Lucky 15 w Magic Money, Attest, Chittu, Dubai Devils
    Posted by Phantom66
    Hi Phants,
    it often works out very well that even if the horses are fairly short prices, still back them in an each way Lucky 15, particularly if you have a bigger priced horse in, as per the highlighted bet above where all your horses were placed. it is double the money but as long as the shorty's are 2/1 or more it should work out ok.
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    unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited June 2017
    i started removing the singles as worked out that putting a banker in with 2 better priced horses worked better for me. when i mean banker it roughly 2-1, so if others are say 5-1 and 8-1 its a nice double when they come up. at stakes im bettting im not bothered about losing the single money.

    wynne is right tho the bookies dont like the patent.


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    wynne1938wynne1938
    edited June 2017
    Here is an example of a patent

    Bet Confirmation - HH9780663823I - Internet Time of bet: 04/06/2017 22:19:52 No.SelectionsEventEvent DateE/W TermsOddsDividendBet TypeResult 1 Exxaro
    2.40 Newton Abbot (Race 2)
    (Win and Each Way)
    Live Stream  05/06/2017 None 13/8      2nd 2 Polly's Pursuit
    4.10 Newton Abbot (Race 5)
    (Win and Each Way)
    Live Stream  05/06/2017 None 1/1      NR 3 Deauville Dancer
    4.45 Newton Abbot (Race 6)
    (Win and Each Way)
    Live Stream  05/06/2017 None 13/8      Won Multiples
    Bet Type No.of Bets Unit Stake Total Stake To Return Return
    Patent 7 1.00 7.00 38.42  £5.12
    Total Stake:  7.00
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    wynne1938wynne1938
    edited June 2017
    Here is another example using 5 races and one of the races there is 2 selections

    Bet Confirmation - BH8901987926I - Internet Time of bet: 04/06/2017 22:25:51 No.SelectionsEventEvent DateE/W TermsOddsDividendBet TypeResult 1 The Mcgregornator
    7.25 Ayr (Race 4)
    (Win and Each Way)                  Lost
    Live Stream  05/06/2017 3 Places
    1/5 Odds 7/4    To Run 2 Comrade Conrad
    3.20 Leicester (Race 3)
    (Win and Each Way)                      Lost
    Live Stream  05/06/2017 3 Places
    1/4 Odds 8/1    To Run 3 Bletchley
    4.55 Leicester (Race 6)
    (Win and Each Way)
    Live Stream                                   Won 05/06/2017 2 Places
    1/4 Odds 9/4    To Run 4 Nine Below Zero
    5.40 Windsor (Race 1)
    (Win and Each Way)
    Live Stream                                     Won 05/06/2017 2 Places
    1/4 Odds 11/10    To Run 5 West Drive
    7.10 Windsor (Race 4)
    (Win and Each Way)
    Live Stream                                       Won 05/06/2017 3 Places
    1/5 Odds 11/4    To Run 6 Opposition
    7.10 Windsor (Race 4)
    (Win and Each Way)
    Live Stream 





      








                                          2nd




    Multiples
    Bet Type No.of Bets Unit Stake Total Stake To Return Return
    E/W Permed Patent 112 0.10 22.40   £29.19
    Total Stake:  22.40


    05/06/2017 3 Places
    1/5 Odds 9/2    To Run
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    Phantom66Phantom66
    edited June 2017
    Wow. Thanks all some great info there.

    @Wynne, that's brilliant, I finally understand your thread now! Will definitely try a Patent 7 especially if I am only keen on 3 horses. I dont stake enough to go for a perm yet but I will keep it in mind for the future. I assume that if bookies dont like patents also means they dont give the double odds or 10% bonus either.

    @Misty - Well spotted. I hadn't twigged that I had a 4xplace quadruple in that selection with my 2 wins. I had thought I had done ok today, bit gutted now! 

    @Micky - I dont bet big at all, but generally I like to spread out on my selections with value bet singles. This is really just a little experiment to see how I go on multiples. I can see the attraction especially if I ever get any where near the "potential returns".  It's a case of "bankroll management" at the moment. I think of it as switching from SNGs to MTTs you definitely need a bigger roll to cope with the higher variance. 

    @Tikay, I had heard of that "system" but didnt know its name. It always seemed to me a sure fire way of picking up regular small wins and an occasional huge loss to offset it. 50/50 bets will quite naturally provide clusters of results, We went into that in depth with some added maths from Geldy on your thread. I dont think that's what the poster here was advocating though, he proposed doubling stakes after a win on a treble. I suppose if you win big you may be able to afford doubling your stake. I generally find that if I start increasing stakes it is usually a good way of giving the bookies back my winnings.

    Generally I am picking up that ew is good, as if say doing a Lucky 15 and only 3 win, you are still picking up the win treble and double combos (I hope I get one someday soon) plus all your bets come in if all 4 land and if you place in the 4th you get all the place combos too. Whereas if you just put up a 4 fold accumulator and you get 3 wins and a place you only get the place combos so pick up alot less.

    I think combining ew combos with EPRs could also be really good use of that extra value. A permed patent may work best there as often there are only 2 EPRs a day, except in the big meetings.

    I have noticed that sometimes sky do 3 places in greyhound races for a whole evening (where 6 dogs are entered). That could be an option worth exploring too.



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    robalanxxxrobalanxxx
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Multiples:
    Here is an example of a patent Bet Confirmation - HH9780663823I - Internet Time of bet: 04/06/2017 22:19:52 No. Selections Event Event Date E/W Terms Odds Dividend Bet Type Result 1 Exxaro 2.40 Newton Abbot (Race 2) (Win and Each Way) Live Stream  05/06/2017 None 13/8   To Run 2 Polly's Pursuit 4.10 Newton Abbot (Race 5) (Win and Each Way) Live Stream  05/06/2017 None 1/1   To Run 3 Deauville Dancer 4.45 Newton Abbot (Race 6) (Win and Each Way) Live Stream  05/06/2017 None 13/8   To Run Multiples Bet Type No.of Bets Unit Stake Total Stake To Return Return Patent 7 1.00 7.00 38.42   Total Stake:  7.00
    Posted by wynne1938
    having a patent with these odds is pointless to me,  you need 2 winners to get your stake back, much better having 3-doubles and a treble.
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    unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited June 2017
    phantom

    As you will see your request has brought numerous advice and some contradiction and I a, going to add to it.

    I have to say I don't like Yankees anyway but wouldn't touch Lucky 15 with a barge pole. Alright you get double the odds but you have to stake the same amount on each bet.

    Now is getting 4 winners as easy as getting one of course it isn't but with a lucky 15 you are staking same amount on the single as the four timer. brilliant if it comes up but how many times does that happen I ask myself.

    As I have said on numerous threads on here at different times. my fav bet is as follows.

    4points win singles or 2pts each way if good prices
    if horses are 4-1 over then 2 pts ew doubles
    and 2pts ew treble
    (the reason I don't reduce the amout I put on the treble is that you are only having it once so doesn't push upthe spend too much)

    If the horses are under 4-1 I usually do the doubles win only but you can do ew as long as the horse are not too short priced.

    You can of course up date this bet to Yankees if you favour them over my kind of adapted patent. But I would always put more on the singles and smaller multiples rather than the once in a blue moon 4 horse accums.
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    robalanxxxrobalanxxx
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Multiples:
    In Response to Re: Multiples : Have a read of this, Mark; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martingale_(betting_system Am not dissing Rob, good luck to him if it works, but my advice to you would be DO NOT GO THERE. In addition to the risks explained in that Wiki page, if your bookmaker suddenly restricts you (or closes your account) after you have lost 6 or 8 n a row, you are in a world of pain now.
    Posted by Tikay10
    you missunderstand what i was trying to say phantom said he was min stake betting having lucky15s i.e. 15 bets a trixie is only four bets. two winners more or less guarantees a profit, 3 winners then you can afford to put more on next time  i didnt mean keep  doubling your stakes.
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    Phantom66Phantom66
    edited June 2017
    Thanks Mr V. I see your point. I would say that I am still backing singles and then smaller multiples anyway, but that does mean I dont really need the lucky 15 as a yankee gives me all the combos.

    I am going to try some doubles/trebles on the selections I made today.

    My main bets are all singles on my EPR races and my NAP.

    Singles

    4.00 Chepstow 
    Distant High 13/2 £5 free bet w (my NAP for NAP league)
    Distant High 13/2 1pt ew

    4.10 Wetherby (4 places)
    Dream of summer 18/1 0.5 pt ew
    Zlatan 7/1 0.5 pt ew

    5.30 Chepstow (4 places)
    Knight Destroyer 11/10 1 pt w
    Rahmah 10/1 0.5 pt ew
    Dizzey Heights 12/1 0.5 pt ew

    So I am adding the following multiples

    ew treble Distant High + Zlatan + Rahmah 0.1 pt
    w treble Distant High + Zlatan + Knight Destroyer 0.2pt
    ew double Dream of Summer + Dizzey Heights 0.2pt
    ew double Zlatan + Rahmah 0.2pt
    ew double Rahmah + Dream of Summer 0.2 pt
    ew double Dizzey heights + Zlatan 0.2 pt
    ew double Distant High + Zlatan 0.2pt
    ew double Distant High + Dizzey Heights 0.2 pt
    ew double Distant High + Rahmah 0.2 pt
    ew double Distant High + Dream of Summer 0.2 pt

    NB individual odds have changed on a few of these since I backed them individually


    Gl All




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    jordz16jordz16
    edited June 2017
    for me if you are seriously looking at the best way to make profit then i wouldnt touch any multiples, but lets not forget there is a fun factor to betting too, and i think there is nothing wrong with accas and multiples etc, i will often do an acca on the saturday football just to make it more enjoyable i just reduce my stakes from what it would be if i was placing a bet i deemed to be +ev

    this has inspired my to have a punt on the first 6 races today so i have done as follows, i believe its called a Super Yankee

    2.00 Holy Tiber
    2.10 Dontgiveuponbob
    2.20 Immortal Romance
    2.30 Tripartite
    2.40 Twentytwowontdo
    2.50 Musical Terms


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    Phantom66Phantom66
    edited June 2017
    GL Jordz

    I was conscious that "pros only bet singles" when starting this thread.

    As you say it adds to the fun element that you can potentially win big from a few selections, even if lower ev long term.

    My main betting strategy is and always will be to look for value singles.

    My main interest in multiples has come from the Jackpot syndicate and Pick7.
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    unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited June 2017
    good luck today especially I had already backed your nap before I saw it was.
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    Phantom66Phantom66
    edited June 2017
    Thanks Mr V.

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    jordz16jordz16
    edited June 2017
    I like to think I have made a big effort to show you the potential perils of these bets, I believe every horse i picked placed but didnt win. 
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    Phantom66Phantom66
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Multiples:
    I like to think I have made a big effort to show you the potential perils of these bets, I believe every horse i picked placed but didnt win. 
    Posted by jordz16
    UL Jordz, but thanks for the valuable lesson.

    I expect I will have to lose more money of my own before I learn properly though.


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    Phantom66Phantom66
    edited June 2017
    Today was a good lesson in the benefit of singles.

    After Jordz demo I managed to lose my first "leg" of my trebles and a lot of doubles.

    Then the 2nd race there was a late non runner and the other did not place.

    All my wins came in the third race. At least some of those doubles still won as singles due to the NR

    I also had a 1-2-3 in the 3rd race but only backed it forecast and not tricast.
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    Phantom66Phantom66
    edited June 2017
    Tried a placepot in the week but didnt have to time to post it.

    I only did 48x10p lines, 2 horses each race, one near the top of the betting and a "value bet".

    Was going well with one place or win in the first 3 then two in the fourth and fifth. Blanked the 6th though but at least put a chunk on the winner to make a decent return. 

    Today I have gone for a ew Yankee...

    Encrypted, Fantasy Keeper, Juanito Chico, Scorching Heat

    GL All
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    unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited June 2017
    nice looking yankee mate all the best of luck
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    unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited June 2017
    In Response to Re: Multiples:
    Tried a placepot in the week but didnt have to time to post it. I only did 48x10p lines, 2 horses each race, one near the top of the betting and a "value bet". Was going well with one place or win in the first 3 then two in the fourth and fifth. Blanked the 6th though but at least put a chunk on the winner to make a decent return.  Today I have gone for a ew Yankee... Encrypted, Fantasy Keeper, Juanito Chico, Scorching Heat GL All
    Posted by Phantom66
    but have you put the same amount on all 11 bets ?
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    Phantom66Phantom66
    edited June 2017
    HI Mr V.

    Yes I did place a straight yankee.

    It was only a small bet relative to my single stakes for the day.

    In the end I had a 3 place treble (and 3 doubles) to make 10% loss on the bet.

    Always a downer in these when your first leg loses.
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