Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued

GaryLaud

s	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£3.08
	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£3.60
	Your hole cards	K 10
	Fold
OR RS	Raise		£0.12	£0.18	£3.94
GaryLaud	Call		£0.12	£0.30	£2.75
s	Raise		£0.50	£0.80	£2.58
	Fold
	Fold
GaryLaud	Call		£0.40	£1.20	£2.35
Flop
		J 6 4
s	Bet		£1.20	£2.40	£1.38
GaryLaud	Call		£1.20	£3.60	£1.15
Turn
		7
s	All-in		£1.38	£4.98	£0.00
GaryLaud	All-in		£1.15	£6.13	£0.00
s	Unmatched bet		£0.23	£5.90	£0.23
s	Show	K K
GaryLaud	Show	K 10
River
		7
GaryLaud	Win	Flush to the King	£5.45		£5.45

Sick Spot -

Having attracted some trash talking I thought I would share this hand with you all.

Been playing 15mins on this table and kinda had a read on this player who had been betting a fair bit in a variety of spots.

a 3x raise began the action which I called with my K10 OS.. The villan then pumps in a raise - 50p into a 30p pot.

Mulled over was considering a fold, but actually clicked "CALL"

Flop is J 6 4, all diamond.

I've already got 1x diamond in hand so I'm now 4 cards to the flush with two cards still to deal, two opportunities to hit with a 1-in-4 chance (in my oppion - i will elaborate more later) both times.

Villan AGAIN pots it. I'm definately comitted at this stage so I call - Here though it could be that the villan has a flush or is set minding u but with the view (perhaps a bit of a dangerous one) I decided to continue

Turn is a brick - 7SP

The player goes all in for his remaining 1.38 into a 3.60 pot

Once again I call - IF I miss I know that I'm going to be my £2 buy-in plus 70-odd pence profit, but with a one in four chance - i'm going for it, as I've ran well tonight.

The Villan Turns over 1pr - KINGS, which he started with as his holecards - the board HASNT paired so best he can make now is 2prs, with myself looking at a flush

The river is the card I need, another diamond, completing my flush, King High.

He outchipped me so got 20p back but after this hand he unleashed a tirade calling me a donkey and a bingo player.

I felt I had a good read on what he had done previously and what with the cards in the middle, OK I was risking encountering a flush of my opponent - which is where the play was a very dangerous one, but as there wasnt any connecting cards I feel my play here was right.

PERCENTAGES

Another "ROW" I had in the chat before the villan left the table was about percentages - he "Claims" I had barely a 17% chance of hitting the winning card I needed. I disagreed.

I had two opportunities to hit one of the cards I needed to complete my flush, and as I hit it on the river, I said it was a one in four chance, based around the fact that there are indeed four suits - heart-club-diamond-spade - yet he is insistant that it was just 17%

WHOM is correct here?

Enut

Just over 20% to win the hand with one card to come. 38% with two to come.

unknown_username

I think its 20/80.

EDIT  *oops,  i see Enut replied before me.

HENDRIK62

using 4 and 2 it comes out slightly lower

No of outs (9) x 4 with 2 cards to come, x 2 with 1 card to come, so about 36% or 18%

Enut

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued:

using 4 and 2 it comes out slightly lower No of outs (9) x 4 with 2 cards to come, x 2 with 1 card to come, so about 36% or 18%
Posted by HENDRIK62

I got the odds from a poker odds calculator, I assume it factors the runner runner outs in as well, You know the ones that hit when you think you've swayed the flush outs only to find the pot goes to ther other player!

MISTY4ME

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued:

using 4 and 2 it comes out slightly lower No of outs (9) x 4 with 2 cards to come, x 2 with 1 card to come, so about 36% or 18%
Posted by HENDRIK62

Hi Jimi

Great post on your New Year thread, and unlucky down at Foxhills mate.

been as I'm a bit of a novice at this Poker lark..... why do you use 4 and 2 ? 

tomgoodun

May I ask what range you put him on? His betting suggests strength, even if you hit a diamond you could potentially lose.

unknown_username

fold pre save money 

Enut

I would agree, easy fold pre, by the way.

unknown_username

also if you are going to call all the way regardless why not shove flop or turn? thats also a better way of playing the hand imo.

kk got his hand in good on any level id be happy not moaning like obviously went on here.

IDONKCALLU

poker clinic

GaryLaud

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued:

also if you are going to call all the way regardless why not shove flop or turn? thats also a better way of playing the hand imo. kk got his hand in good on any level id be happy not moaning like obviously went on here.
Posted by MICKYBLUE

Yeah - I wasn't as happy as I should have been to scoop such a huge pot for that level - my decline in happyness brought about by the opponent's trash talking.

and furthermore I acknowledge I should have headed the danger and perhaps either folded pre or shoved.

Still on a learning curve but it does decline the fun a bit when you ended up being ranted at for getting lucky - as I said in the OP, I'd been runing great all session and felt I had a big chance to hit, and what the fact I had also seen him betting alot the past few hands i ran with it.

markycash

The initial call of 3x on the BTN is open to debate. Your hand is not great and the cut-off has raised but you do have position. Whether the preflop 3x call is good would depend on your reads, if you think you can use your position to outplay them post flop etc. Once it is 3 bet to 50p then I would say you have to think about what type of hands your opponent is making this bet with and how your KTo hand plays against this. I would also consider that the 50p 3 bet is a significant percentage of your stack, so do we want to get involved here for our stack with KTo or do we have room to find better spots?

I would say personally it doesn't look like we need to be involved here and would be folding.

Hendrik is pretty accurate with the way of working out the odds. This method was devised by Phil Gordon in his "Little Green Book". While the method is not exact, it is close enough to make these approximations. 

The problem I would suggest is that we do not know if the diamonds are our outs (if our opponent has the Ad which seems entirely plausible). Even if diamonds are live, our opponent may have a set which means the 7d wouldn't help us. The way the hand is played it is hard to know if we have 'clean outs' which makes matters rather difficult. In the long run I wouldn't be counting the diamonds as full outs in this situation.

As for the player berating you...

Just let it go in 1 ear and out the other! They are your cards, it is your cash, and you can do with that whatever you want!

You will meet really nice people at the tables and you will encounter some real nasty sorts. Forget the nasty ones and enjoy your poker. 

Good luck for the future!

HAYSIE

In Response to Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued:

s Small blind   £0.02 £0.02 £3.08   Big blind   £0.04 £0.06 £3.60   Your hole cards K 10         Fold         OR RS Raise   £0.12 £0.18 £3.94 GaryLaud Call   £0.12 £0.30 £2.75 s Raise   £0.50 £0.80 £2.58   Fold           Fold         GaryLaud Call   £0.40 £1.20 £2.35 Flop     J 6 4       s Bet   £1.20 £2.40 £1.38 GaryLaud Call   £1.20 £3.60 £1.15 Turn     7       s All-in   £1.38 £4.98 £0.00 GaryLaud All-in   £1.15 £6.13 £0.00 s Unmatched bet   £0.23 £5.90 £0.23 s Show K K       GaryLaud Show K 10       River     7       GaryLaud Win Flush to the King £5.45   £5.45 Sick Spot - Having attracted some trash talking I thought I would share this hand with you all. Been playing 15mins on this table and kinda had a read on this player who had been betting a fair bit in a variety of spots. a 3x raise began the action which I called with my K10 OS.. The villan then pumps in a raise - 50p into a 30p pot. Mulled over was considering a fold, but actually clicked "CALL" Flop is J 6 4, all diamond. I've already got 1x diamond in hand so I'm now 4 cards to the flush with two cards still to deal, two opportunities to hit with a 1-in-4 chance (in my oppion - i will elaborate more later) both times. Villan AGAIN pots it. I'm definately comitted at this stage so I call - Here though it could be that the villan has a flush or is set minding u but with the view (perhaps a bit of a dangerous one) I decided to continue Turn is a brick - 7SP The player goes all in for his remaining 1.38 into a 3.60 pot Once again I call - IF I miss I know that I'm going to be my £2 buy-in plus 70-odd pence profit, but with a one in four chance - i'm going for it, as I've ran well tonight. The Villan Turns over 1pr - KINGS, which he started with as his holecards - the board HASNT paired so best he can make now is 2prs, with myself looking at a flush The river is the card I need, another diamond, completing my flush, King High. He outchipped me so got 20p back but after this hand he unleashed a tirade calling me a donkey and a bingo player. I felt I had a good read on what he had done previously and what with the cards in the middle, OK I was risking encountering a flush of my opponent - which is where the play was a very dangerous one, but as there wasnt any connecting cards I feel my play here was right. PERCENTAGES Another "ROW" I had in the chat before the villan left the table was about percentages - he "Claims" I had barely a 17% chance of hitting the winning card I needed. I disagreed. I had two opportunities to hit one of the cards I needed to complete my flush, and as I hit it on the river, I said it was a one in four chance, based around the fact that there are indeed four suits - heart-club-diamond-spade - yet he is insistant that it was just 17% WHOM is correct here?
Posted by GaryLaud

Not claiming to be an expert, but if you are intent on playing this hand, you surely have to shove post flop.

If you played this hand 5 times in the way you played it, the odds suggest you lose 4 times out of the 5.

If you log on to card player magazine they have an odds calculator, which is under the TOOLS tab on the home page.

HENDRIK62

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued:

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued : Hi Jimi Great post on your New Year thread, and unlucky down at Foxhills mate. been as I'm a bit of a novice at this Poker lark..... why do you use 4 and 2 ? 
Posted by MISTY4ME

Hey Jez

Thanks, it was good to see lots of faces I hadn't seen for a while, some pretty good players in the 'old boys' tourneys :-)

As marky alluded to in his post 4 and 2 was devised as a very quick approximation of outs post flop, obviously it does not take into account any of our opponents holding and potential counterfeiting.

with 2 cards to come work out how many outs you have then times it by 4 that will give you the percentage value and you can weigh up whether you think carrying on is viable, as marky pointed out there are many other considerations, potential returns, bountiy values etc etc but its a good starting point.

with one card to come your odds shorten, so we times our potential outs by 2

HENDRIK62

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued:

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued : I got the odds from a poker odds calculator, I assume it factors the runner runner outs in as well, You know the ones that hit when you think you've swayed the flush outs only to find the pot goes to ther other player!
Posted by Enut

Good point, any combo of 9 and queen or ace and queen in this case......I believe they are known as 'markys'. :-)

markycash

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued:

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued : Good point, any combo of 9 and queen or ace and queen in this case......I believe they are known as 'markys'. :-)
Posted by HENDRIK62

Harsh Paul ;-)

HENDRIK62

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued:

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued : Harsh Paul ;-)
Posted by markycash

:-)

MISTY4ME

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued:

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued : Hey Jez Thanks, it was good to see lots of faces I hadn't seen for a while, some pretty good players in the 'old boys' tourneys :-) As marky alluded to in his post 4 and 2 was devised as a very quick approximation of outs post flop, obviously it does not take into account any of our opponents holding and potential counterfeiting. with 2 cards to come work out how many outs you have then times it by 4 that will give you the percentage value and you can weigh up whether you think carrying on is viable, as marky pointed out there are many other considerations, potential returns, bountiy values etc etc but its a good starting point. with one card to come your odds shorten, so we times our potential outs by 2
Posted by HENDRIK62

Thanks for this, and your help too Marky.... certainly makes it easier to work out in the limited time you have in online poker.

How many names have you got Paul Neil Jimi Hendrik62.... at least we know your age ...(:D}

rabdeniro

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued:

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued : Yeah - I wasn't as happy as I should have been to scoop such a huge pot for that level - my decline in happyness brought about by the opponent's trash talking. and furthermore I acknowledge I should have headed the danger and perhaps either folded pre or shoved. Still on a learning curve but it does decline the fun a bit when you ended up being ranted at for getting lucky - as I said in the OP, I'd been runing great all session and felt I had a big chance to hit, and what the fact I had also seen him betting alot the past few hands i ran with it.
Posted by GaryLaud

You pays your money you take your chance, everybody gets lucky, if somebody rants at you, tell them to shut their big gob.

HENDRIK62

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued:

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued : Thanks for this, and your help too Marky.... certainly makes it easier to work out in the limited time you have in online poker. How many names have you got Paul Neil Jimi Hendrik 62 .... at least we know your age ...(:D}
Posted by MISTY4ME

Ha ha those are just the polite ones......reverse it and double gets you closer to my actual age, the fact you remember that Eastwood movie gives away your advancing years ;-)

MISTY4ME

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued:

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued : Ha ha those are just the polite ones......reverse it and double gets you closer to my actual age, the fact you remember that Eastwood movie gives away your advancing years ;-)
Posted by HENDRIK62

LMAO.... (:D}

Who's Eastwood?

Nuggy962

Hate way you played this hand. But that is what low limots is all about. Is loosing play long term for sure calling pre, calling flop amd getting it in on turn.  Villian played it well and was UL end of. 

As for % - you need to take i to account what we know is out all ready. Ypu got KK , you know is 2 more Kings to hit, if you got none you assume is 4 you can hit (until.you see otherwise)

All though played hand badly, is no need for trash talk. If luck boxed just say you knew it was coming and let them stew

markycash

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued:

If luck boxed just say you knew it was coming and let them stew
Posted by Nuggy962

Well if someone donks me and does this it will definitely have me silently stewing. Can deal with the beats but someone trying to convince me that they have psychic powers... well, that is a whole other matter

Nuggy962

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued:

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued : Well if someone donks me and does this it will definitely have me silently stewing. Can deal with the beats but someone trying to convince me that they have psychic powers... well, that is a whole other matter
Posted by markycash

Haha, too true 

weecheez1

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued:

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued : Well if someone donks me and does this it will definitely have me silently stewing. Can deal with the beats but someone trying to convince me that they have psychic powers... well, that is a whole other matter
Posted by markycash

Ha ha slightly off topic but we live in the same area and there are a few spey wives you know the ones they get a few women together and tell them their future and say they can speak to their dead relatives they scare the bejesus out of me

markycash

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued:

In Response to Re: Sick Spot at 4NL - flush made - trash talk ensued : Ha ha slightly off topic but we live in the same area and there are a few spey wives you know the ones they get a few women together and tell them their future and say they can speak to their dead relatives they scare the bejesus out of me
Posted by weecheez1

Haha I know a few people that visit those folks...