Busting out with JJ

jake13

Hi all, relatively new to poker. A bit of advice on early tourney play. Ok I have JJ preflop. UTG calls next raises 3 BB next folds, I push all in sb folds,bbfolds UTG folds and villain calls. Cards turn and he has AA. Flop comes 10h 9s 3c 5c Qd. I bust out. Giving it some thought I wondered if I could have played it differently without losing my whole stack. Given the flop, turn and river I think I still would have bust out. I reckon would have raised any bet on the flop and ended all in any way.  Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

BADBOY985

WHAT TYPE OF TOURNY WAS IT

Spike2120

right ok early on in a tournament unless it was a short stack speed tournament the aim is to chip up but protect your stack, unlike cash thats all you have so you have to protect it. a lot of that will come from how you play pre-flop early on and post flop when you miss.

First thing I am gonna say is that you were very unlucky to run JJ into AA, would get into probabilities but not going to, in this circumstance the villian has raised to 3 BB so the best play is to raise it up around 9/12 Bigs depending on mainly your stack size as you do not want to pot commit yourself if you can't help it but obviously with JJ pre flop you are always thinking your ahead, even if they push on you afterwards as they would play it exactly the same with AK AQ possibly AJ depending on the player.

Now with this flop your never going away even if the money wasn't in pre-flop it would be by now, if you check to induce hes gonna fire out or betting your over pair he is always coming over the top of you and there is nothing on that board that shouts immediate danger, so this time around even if you had managed to keep some back pre-flop post flop its all going in anyways.

seems you reckon he would have pushed regardless then there was nothing you could do, no matter what stage of a tournament its gonna be hard to lay down JJ pre-flop yes the board could come down very scary but thats when you escape if at that point you can.

One last point to say is that you played it well maybe the over push was a little over the top cause if your against AJ for instance they will fold pre flop but would still raise 3xBB pre in that position to thin the field, with that hand you want 1 customer preferably and that strong raise will get rid of a lot of hands that would raise pre flop to that amount and in turn you lose all your custom. For example in that spot J-10 would be played similar before your shove but no way will it be risked for their entire stack pre flop but if you had raised it to 9xBB they may call and that flop they will think they are ahead and you would win a tidy pot. The other thing is that regardless how you played that all the money was going in there was no real way with that board and them hands that you were folding and they certainly weren't folding. 

Basically its just a case of bad luck nothing you could really do.

Hope this has helped

Spike2120

jake13

The tourney was a bounty hunter. Thanks for the advice Spike. In Response to Re: Busting out with JJ:

right ok early on in a tournament unless it was a short stack speed tournament the aim is to chip up but protect your stack, unlike cash thats all you have so you have to protect it. a lot of that will come from how you play pre-flop early on and post flop when you miss. First thing I am gonna say is that you were very unlucky to run JJ into AA, would get into probabilities but not going to, in this circumstance the villian has raised to 3 BB so the best play is to raise it up around 9/12 Bigs depending on mainly your stack size as you do not want to pot commit yourself if you can't help it but obviously with JJ pre flop you are always thinking your ahead, even if they push on you afterwards as they would play it exactly the same with AK AQ possibly AJ depending on the player. Now with this flop your never going away even if the money wasn't in pre-flop it would be by now, if you check to induce hes gonna fire out or betting your over pair he is always coming over the top of you and there is nothing on that board that shouts immediate danger, so this time around even if you had managed to keep some back pre-flop post flop its all going in anyways. seems you reckon he would have pushed regardless then there was nothing you could do, no matter what stage of a tournament its gonna be hard to lay down JJ pre-flop yes the board could come down very scary but thats when you escape if at that point you can. One last point to say is that you played it well maybe the over push was a little over the top cause if your against AJ for instance they will fold pre flop but would still raise 3xBB pre in that position to thin the field, with that hand you want 1 customer preferably and that strong raise will get rid of a lot of hands that would raise pre flop to that amount and in turn you lose all your custom. For example in that spot J-10 would be played similar before your shove but no way will it be risked for their entire stack pre flop but if you had raised it to 9xBB they may call and that flop they will think they are ahead and you would win a tidy pot. The other thing is that regardless how you played that all the money was going in there was no real way with that board and them hands that you were folding and they certainly weren't folding.  Basically its just a case of bad luck nothing you could really do. Hope this has helped Spike2120
Posted by Spike2120

Eagle26

ok you shoved all-in pre-flop at the early stages of a tourney,  there is absolutly no point whatsoever in doing this mate, the blinds are low so no point stealing em, im guessin u started with 2000chips  u say there is a call and a raise 3xbb then u shove-so if the blinds are at low level say 10-20  from the action and including the sb and bb there is about what 110 chips in the pot before u shove?? so your risking your tourney life for a 110 chips and u are only ever gonna get called by a hand that has you completly dominated!! at best u can hope for is to be up against AK and even then you are racing-and u dont wanna be racing at an early stage of a tourney! sure if the blinds are higher and your at the later stages then shovin with JJ is the correct move most of the time! but doin this at a start of a tourney is pointless! just think if u was sittin there with say pocket 9's or pocket 10's at the start of a tourney and somebody shoves all-in would u call?-no! if ur sittin there with pocket aces/pocket kings/ would u call? YES! so your play with jacks isnt a good one! by all means put a little raise back in and see what responce u get or just flat call and take a flop and re-evaluate from there, but just shovin isnt great play and will more often than not end up in you being eliminated from a tourney early!

Spike2120

In Response to Re: Busting out with JJ:

ok you shoved all-in pre-flop at the early stages or a tourney,  there is absolutly no point whatsoever in doing this mate, the blinds are low so no point stealing em, im guessin u started with 2000chips  u say there is a call and a raise 3xbb then u shove-so if the blinds are at low level say 10-20  from the action and including the sb and bb there is about what 110 chips in the pot before u shove?? so your risking your tourney life for a 110 chips and u are only ever gonna get called by a hand that has you completly dominated!! at best u can hope for is to be up against AK and even then you are racing-and u dont wanna be racing at an early stage of a tourney! sure if the blinds are higher and your at the later stages then shovin with JJ is the correct move most of the time! but doin this at a start of a tourney is pointless! just think if u was sittin there with say pocket 9's or pocket 10's at the start of a tourney and somebody shoves all-in would u call?-no! if ur sittin there with pocket aces/pocket kings/possibly queens would u call? YES! so your play with jacks isnt a good one! by all means put a little raise back in and see what responce u get or just flat call and take a flop and re-evaluate from there, but just shovin isnt great play and will more often than not end up in you being eliminated from a tourney early!
Posted by Eagle26

I see your point here eagle but at the same time you look at that flop and consider the over pair he would normally be crushing a random hand only really 4 maybe 5 or 6 hands that have him beat out of a total of what 1326 possible hands and disregarding the shove the 18 hands you maybe more in which you put him on with that pre flop raise therefore your never going away and by the turn the money would be in anyways so theres no escape in this circumstance.

I will admit it could be played differently and arguably better but against AA you are highly to get 4 bet all in if you re-raise it up, which imo is the right thing to do to attempt to take the initiative in the hand. It would be very disciplined fold and whether or not it would be the correct fold over time well thats a different discussion. To be fair its a very big re-raise that is only being called by hands that will have you racing and perhaps against most hands a small re-raise would get called down to see a flop but this hand was always destined to end up all in whether it be pre, flop or turn it was always going in no way were they getting to the river and it not already be in the middle.

Eagle26

In Response to Re: Busting out with JJ:

In Response to Re: Busting out with JJ : I see your point here eagle but at the same time you look at that flop and consider the over pair he would normally be crushing a random hand only really 4 maybe 5 or 6 hands that have him beat out of a total of what 1326 possible hands and disregarding the shove the 18 hands you maybe more in which you put him on with that pre flop raise therefore your never going away and by the turn the money would be in anyways so theres no escape in this circumstance. I will admit it could be played differently and arguably better but against AA you are highly to get 4 bet all in if you re-raise it up, which imo is the right thing to do to attempt to take the initiative in the hand. It would be very disciplined fold and whether or not it would be the correct fold over time well thats a different discussion. To be fair its a very big re-raise that is only being called by hands that will have you racing and perhaps against most hands a small re-raise would get called down to see a flop but this hand was always destined to end up all in whether it be pre, flop or turn it was always going in no way were they getting to the river and it not already be in the middle.
Posted by Spike2120

there is no discussion mate, its a simple fold! if you cant lay down pocket jacks at the START of a tourney to an all-in bet pre-flop then thats your fault! 

scrumdown

totally agree with u there eagle over played his jacks so early in the tourney u raised pre flop and u got your answer play jacks like u would play pocket 8s i

BADBOY985

In Response to Re: Busting out with JJ:

In Response to Re: Busting out with JJ : there is no discussion mate, its a simple fold! if you cant lay down pocket jacks at the START of a tourney to an all-in bet pre-flop then thats your fault! 
Posted by Eagle26

he went all in first eagle. agree with your point in most formats but in a bounty hunter imo the calls are always generally looser im calling an all in with jj early doubling over gives you much more chance to take bounties and make money as that especialy at lower buy ins the final payouts arent that high.
any other tourniment im calling and checking the flop but as spike says getting away from that board is never going to happen 

Eagle26

In Response to Re: Busting out with JJ:

In Response to Re: Busting out with JJ : he went all in first eagle. agree with your point in most formats but in a bounty hunter imo the calls are always generally looser im calling an all in with jj early doubling over gives you much more chance to take bounties and make money as that especialy at lower buy ins the final payouts arent that high. any other tourniment im calling and checking the flop but as spike says getting away from that board is never going to happen 
Posted by BADBOY985

why cant u get away from that board? if u check the flop, he bets, u re-raise-he shoves all-in..so u cant fold? the board was what 10 9 3 or somethin like that? ok so ur losin to AA, KK, QQ, Trip 10's Trip 99's Trip 33's 10-9 ..all of which are possible! what are u beating?? would he do this with AK/AQ or smaller pocket pair?? unlikely! and even if he is, why take the chance? start of the tourney u got no reads on the guy-just fold! even if it is a small bounty hunter, there is enough maniacs that play them to wait for a better spot where u can feel alot more comfortable puttin all your chips in the middle rather than just shovin em all in with this hand, closing your eyes and hopin the guy has air!  

BADBOY985

ok not you cant get away from that board but in a £2 bounty hunter which after sharkscoping jake im guessing it is you pretty much up against the any ace all in brigade and as soon as the blinds get to 100 any 2 suited or any 2 conectors all in. so knowing this you just cant fold jj for me its an all in as soon as i see the raise as theres a good chance you up against 7/8 suited.
think your answer is 100% correct in a slower format or higher buy in but in the £2 bh theres no point playing poker as no other b*gger does.

jake13

Thanks for the comments guys, I think you all have excellent points. Cheers.