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would you fold?

hurst05hurst05
edited April 2010 in The Poker Clinic
i got into a debate with a friend of mine last night after a hand that saw him get knocked out of a deep structured mtt. we started 10,000 chips with a 45 minute clock for the first 2 levels. he had around starting stack at the beginning of the hand. hes sat mid position with me to his left. he limps, i raise to 6 times the bb. blinds are 50/100 (were on a pretty loose table and a standard 4x wouldnt do) i get called by a the guy to my left and my mate. 

flop comes 9c-10c-Qh

he checks, i bet around 1,200 (i have flush draw, but no where near the nuts lol) the guy to my left goes allin for about 8,500 i was stunned as everyone is deep stacked. my mate tanks for a while and calls, i folded as its early tournament i have no reads and could well be dead. my mate shows 9-10 and the other guy J-Q lol pretty crazy stuff.

anyway the turn comes another Q and thats the end of my mate. my view on this was if i was my mate i would fold, on the basis we have no read on oppo, hes gone allin for 8,500 when we still have 85 big blinds and ages left to play, the minimum hes going with is 2 pair in which case were dead or splitting. plus he still had me the origional raiser to act behind him and id only played 1 hand all game. incidently he was ahead going in but would anyone else have called there or would they have fodled? maybe its just me being my usual tight self when playing live poker, which is usually what happens lol.
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Comments

  • Seagull158Seagull158
    edited April 2010
    In Response to would you fold?:
    i got into a debate with a friend of mine last night after a hand that saw him get knocked out of a deep structured mtt. we started 10,000 chips with a 45 minute clock for the first 2 levels. he had around starting stack at the beginning of the hand. hes sat mid position with me to his left. he limps, i raise to 6 times the bb. blinds are 50/100 (were on a pretty loose table and a standard 4x wouldnt do) i get called by a the guy to my left and my mate.  flop comes 9c-10c-Qh he checks, i bet around 1,200 (i have flush draw, but no where near the nuts lol) the guy to my left goes allin for about 8,500 i was stunned as everyone is deep stacked. my mate tanks for a while and calls, i folded as its early tournament i have no reads and could well be dead. my mate shows 9-10 and the other guy J-Q lol pretty crazy stuff. anyway the turn comes another Q and thats the end of my mate. my view on this was if i was my mate i would fold, on the basis we have no read on oppo, hes gone allin for 8,500 when we still have 85 big blinds and ages left to play, the minimum hes going with is 2 pair in which case were dead or splitting. plus he still had me the origional raiser to act behind him and id only played 1 hand all game. incidently he was ahead going in but would anyone else have called there or would they have fodled? maybe its just me being my usual tight self when playing live poker, which is usually what happens lol.
    Posted by hurst05
    I fold just about anything cos I always expect the worst but FWIW I'm definitely folding there. He's got second and third pairs. He's roughly a 51-49% favourite against the QJ but you've got to assume that other guy has better than QJ, haven't you? Against KJ he's 18% (OK maybe he wouldnt shove with the made straight but I've seen people do it). Against QT or Q9 he's 10%.
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  • hurst05hurst05
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: would you fold?:
    In Response to would you fold? : I fold just about anything cos I always expect the worst but FWIW I'm definitely folding there. He's got second and third pairs. He's roughly a 51-49% favourite against the QJ but you've got to assume that other guy has better than QJ, haven't you? Against KJ he's 18% (OK maybe he wouldnt shove with the made straight but I've seen people do it). Against QT or Q9 he's 10%.
    Posted by Seagull158
    this was my argument, but a got some stick of several players who laughed saying i didnt know anything, which was pretty funny seeing as one of them knocked me out by calling my allin with K-5 offsuit lol. i said what are you expecting to be be beating, even q-j your only a small favourite, but he wouldnt have non of it so im just going to let him play how he wants haha
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  • ChirpyChipChirpyChip
    edited April 2010
    I'm surprised you question hands Live lol.. just asking for trouble :O
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited April 2010
    i fold, even if he had the crazy shover beat, you could still be sitting there with the nuts!!! bottom 2 pair is over rated for sure! What tournie was this hurstie baby? what a great structure!!! wsop ME replica lol?
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited April 2010
    Is the question how you made it 6x preflop and didn't have a big pair?


    Is your mate a genius if the Queen doesn't come on the turn?
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  • hurst05hurst05
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: would you fold?:
    i fold, even if he had the crazy shover beat, you could still be sitting there with the nuts!!! bottom 2 pair is over rated for sure! What tournie was this hurstie baby? what a great structure!!! wsop ME replica lol?
    Posted by BlackFish3
    it was just a £20 freezout at local g-casino, 
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  • hurst05hurst05
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: would you fold?:
    Is the question how you made it 6x preflop and didn't have a big pair? Is your mate a genius if the Queen doesn't come on the turn?
    Posted by beaneh
    if i ever raise 6x bb online i have a big pair ;)

    hes no genius, believe me :)
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  • ACESOVER8sACESOVER8s
    edited April 2010
    In Response to would you fold?:
    my view on this was if i was my mate i would fold, on the basis we have no read on oppo, hes gone allin for 8,500 when we still have 85 big blinds and ages left to play, the minimum hes going with is 2 pair in which case were dead or splitting. plus he still had me the origional raiser to act behind him and id only played 1 hand all game. incidently he was ahead going in but would anyone else have called there or would they have fodled? maybe its just me being my usual tight self when playing live poker, which is usually what happens lol.
    Posted by hurst05
    A couple of points that may have been in your mates thinking that helped him to his decision.

    1) Your statement highlighted above is obviously not correct in this case, the guy's got a pair and a draw (not that i'm saying the tinking behind it is wrong).

    2)You have said within your original comment that you have only played 1 hand all game, i read this to mean play has been going for a little while and while you may not have picked up a read on this guy your mate may have decided he knows where he is with him.

    3) You also say that your at a loose table which is why you raise 6xbb, well if it is loose and you have been on the table long enough to figure that out then your mate may have taken the view that this guy is going to do this with TPTK (or less as the case turned out to be)

    4)You also tell us you may just be being your "Usual Tight Self When Playing Live" so it's probable that your mate knows that you have to be holding the nuts or near to it to call as well here. If your mate plays you a lot and you are known for being tight live then he has a read on you and knows your not coming with him.

    So in summary your mate is at an established loose table wit a guy he knows is going to fold to his left (or knows the majority of the time your going to fold in this position). He has 2 pair and may consider the shover to be a player of loose standard that is going to do this with top pair. I think explained with those factors it's possible to see why he could make the call, i'm not saying i would make it but i can see a thought pattern behind it which could give me the excuse if i was looking for it lol
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  • hurst05hurst05
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: would you fold?:
    In Response to would you fold? : A couple of points that may have been in your mates thinking that helped him to his decision. 1) Your statement highlighted above is obviously not correct in this case, the guy's got a pair and a draw (not that i'm saying the tinking behind it is wrong). 2)You have said within your original comment that you have only played 1 hand all game, i read this to mean play has been going for a little while and while you may not have picked up a read on this guy your mate may have decided he knows where he is with him. 3) You also say that your at a loose table which is why you raise 6xbb, well if it is loose and you have been on the table long enough to figure that out then your mate may have taken the view that this guy is going to do this with TPTK (or less as the case turned out to be) 4)You also tell us you may just be being your "Usual Tight Self When Playing Live" so it's probable that your mate knows that you have to be holding the nuts or near to it to call as well here. If your mate plays you a lot and you are known for being tight live then he has a read on you and knows your not coming with him. So in summary your mate is at an established loose table wit a guy he knows is going to fold to his left (or knows the majority of the time your going to fold in this position). He has 2 pair and may consider the shover to be a player of loose standard that is going to do this with top pair. I think explained with those factors it's possible to see why he could make the call, i'm not saying i would make it but i can see a thought pattern behind it which could give me the excuse if i was looking for it lol
    Posted by ACESOVER8s
    haha mate, some good points in there, but i really should have mentioned that my mate is an average player and doesnt take table images into consideration, he doesnt notice who hasnt played hands etc, but obviously your basing your view on him having this knowledge about his game. everyone plays t different and thats why poker is good. for the record, what would you have done?
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  • hurst05hurst05
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: would you fold?:
    In Response to would you fold? : A couple of points that may have been in your mates thinking that helped him to his decision. 1) Your statement highlighted above is obviously not correct in this case, the guy's got a pair and a draw (not that i'm saying the tinking behind it is wrong). 2)You have said within your original comment that you have only played 1 hand all game, i read this to mean play has been going for a little while and while you may not have picked up a read on this guy your mate may have decided he knows where he is with him. 3) You also say that your at a loose table which is why you raise 6xbb, well if it is loose and you have been on the table long enough to figure that out then your mate may have taken the view that this guy is going to do this with TPTK (or less as the case turned out to be) 4)You also tell us you may just be being your "Usual Tight Self When Playing Live" so it's probable that your mate knows that you have to be holding the nuts or near to it to call as well here. If your mate plays you a lot and you are known for being tight live then he has a read on you and knows your not coming with him. So in summary your mate is at an established loose table wit a guy he knows is going to fold to his left (or knows the majority of the time your going to fold in this position). He has 2 pair and may consider the shover to be a player of loose standard that is going to do this with top pair. I think explained with those factors it's possible to see why he could make the call, i'm not saying i would make it but i can see a thought pattern behind it which could give me the excuse if i was looking for it lol
    Posted by ACESOVER8s
    he thinks the complete opposite of me, we play live home games regular which is good fun and i play even more agressive in them than online, so very very aggressive lol, its just my mentallity is different in casinos, i just need more experience in this environment and ill be my usual self :) it'll be like me being on master cash all the time haha
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  • hurst05hurst05
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: would you fold?:
    In Response to would you fold? : A couple of points that may have been in your mates thinking that helped him to his decision. 1) Your statement highlighted above is obviously not correct in this case, the guy's got a pair and a draw (not that i'm saying the tinking behind it is wrong). 2)You have said within your original comment that you have only played 1 hand all game, i read this to mean play has been going for a little while and while you may not have picked up a read on this guy your mate may have decided he knows where he is with him. 3) You also say that your at a loose table which is why you raise 6xbb, well if it is loose and you have been on the table long enough to figure that out then your mate may have taken the view that this guy is going to do this with TPTK (or less as the case turned out to be) 4)You also tell us you may just be being your "Usual Tight Self When Playing Live" so it's probable that your mate knows that you have to be holding the nuts or near to it to call as well here. If your mate plays you a lot and you are known for being tight live then he has a read on you and knows your not coming with him. So in summary your mate is at an established loose table wit a guy he knows is going to fold to his left (or knows the majority of the time your going to fold in this position). He has 2 pair and may consider the shover to be a player of loose standard that is going to do this with top pair. I think explained with those factors it's possible to see why he could make the call, i'm not saying i would make it but i can see a thought pattern behind it which could give me the excuse if i was looking for it lol
    Posted by ACESOVER8s
    he thinks the complete opposite of me, we play live home games regular which is good fun and i play even more agressive in them than online, so very very aggressive lol, its just my mentallity is different in casinos, i just need more experience in this environment and ill be my usual self :) it'll be like me being on master cash all the time haha
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  • ACESOVER8sACESOVER8s
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: would you fold?:
    In Response to Re: would you fold? : haha mate, some good points in there, but i really should have mentioned that my mate is an average player and doesnt take table images into consideration, he doesnt notice who hasnt played hands etc, but obviously your basing your view on him having this knowledge about his game. everyone plays t different and thats why poker is good. for the record, what would you have done?
    Posted by hurst05
    If i'm readless here i fold.

    Although it's been know for me to lose my senses and make calls deep stacked just cos i feel like it lol

    If it's online i'm far more likley to make this call with that lovley anonnymity of the Computer screen but live with 85 BB's and a guy who i have to show my bottom 2 pair to when he flips his set........ im porobably folding :)
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