Slow down, or fire again?

DOHHHHHHH

Ive got a rare strategy post for ya here, I have a read!!!

Well, I think I do....

Okay my oppo here is a tight player.....I payed him at higher levels than this, so he cud be just messing about like I do with my mates lower down, who knows.....

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
XXX	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£43.82
JADEN	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£22.71
	Your hole cards	Q A
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£2.00	£2.75	£61.45
kingbutch	Fold
dameriver	Fold
EMPTYHEAD2	Fold
XXX	Call		£1.75	£4.50	£42.07
JADEN	Fold
Flop
		3 8 10
XXX	Check
DOHHHHHHH	Bet		£3.38	£7.88	£58.07
XXX	Call		£3.38	£11.26	£38.69
Turn
		5
XXX	Check

Do I fire again here? No hands I an recall specificaly me against the villain, but he doesnt get outta line alot, pretty steady.

What sort of flops do u generally fire twice on? - Iknow in position banging a bet in when an overcard comes works alot, but here the only thing I can o is continue to tell him I have an overpair, or slow down

beaneh

In Response to Slow down, or fire again?:
Ive got a rare strategy post for ya here, I have a read!!! Well, I think I do.... Okay my oppo here is a tight player.....I payed him at higher levels than this, so he cud be just messing about like I do with my mates lower down, who knows..... Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance XXX Small blind   £0.25 £0.25 £43.82 JADEN Big blind   £0.50 £0.75 £22.71   Your hole cards Q A       DOHHHHHHH Raise   £2.00 £2.75 £61.45 kingbutch Fold         dameriver Fold         EMPTYHEAD2 Fold         XXX  Call   £1.75 £4.50 £42.07 JADEN Fold         Flop     3 8 10       XXX Check         DOHHHHHHH Bet   £3.38 £7.88 £58.07 XXX Call   £3.38 £11.26 £38.69 Turn     5       XXX Check       Do I fire again here? No hands I an recall specificaly me against the villain, but he doesnt get outta line alot, pretty steady. What sort of flops do u generally fire twice on? - Iknow in position banging a bet in when an overcard comes works alot, but here the only thing I can o is continue to tell him I have an overpair, or slow down
Posted by DOHHHHHHH



What hands do you think he flats your utg raise in the SB with?
What hands do you think that he check/calls the flop with?
What hands do you think that he check/raises the flop with?

What does that mean that he normally has when he gets to this turn card?
What action do you want to take against that range of hands?What would you do against that range of hands on different turn cards?

edit how does it affect your and his play the fact that you aren't  100bb?

Buster69

I fire again looking at that i put him on a draw check calling all the way but i would bet big don't give him any odds lol if he has a monster then unlucky but even if he has pair of 10's here if you bet big he still may fold them because of the way you played it stinks of AA KK Gl in the future matey

DOHHHHHHH

EDITED - SEE BELOW

DOHHHHHHH

Just reading that super duper krazily expensive book about range, only read the first 4/5 chapters, but already thinking back to this hand.

This is where the "over time" thing is gonna kick in I think, Im gonna have to be prepared to lose buy ins for fun, but believe in the method overtime?

Havent read much about tight players yet, the pots he's wrote about have been 3bet pre and post flop. Can see myself getting it in alot over the next few weeks with draws! lol

Anyway still dunno the answer to the hand above, might do soon.

Edit - 30 seconds later - his range just calling out of the small blind, is gonna be wide, It doesnt tell me alot. Obviously he could have a set of 8's or 3's. He would 3 bet with tens pre flop probably.

Could have 2 overs and a flush draw, AJ, KJ, clubs - I have the queen.

Wont have 9-jack

Could have pocket 9's, maybe 66 or 77.

I would think he would lead the flop, or check raise with sets.

 Probably check call with the QKclubs type of hand.

So I add all those hands up, and figure out if he folds with more than he would call/raise with?

So wud fold the 66, 77, 99 hands  (3)

Would call with the overs and flush draw, JK, JA of clubsad ace ten (3) (I got the queen, and believe he wud 3 bet pre flop with AKclubs)

Would raise with sets, 88, 1010 (2)

So Ive got the possible hands he could have down to 8, 3 of which he would fold, 3 he'd call again, and the other 2 he would raise me.

However the 3 he would fold to another bet with, are probably the most unlikely holdings (bottom of his range?)

Does this still make the bet work over time?

I guess the middle of his range? - the overs and flush draws, if they dont improve, I can take it away on the river?

So that leans back towards the bet again?

Edit - forgot to add, obviously sets likely o check raise the turn if I bet.

K this is my first shot at breaking a hand down like this - all new, go easy on me, back to the book!

DOHH

richtea

In Response to Re: Slow down, or fire again?:

Just reading that super duper krazily expensive book about range, only read the first 4/5 chapters, but already thinking back to this hand. This is where the "over time" thing is gonna kick in I think, Im gonna have to be prepared to lose buy ins for fun, but believe in the method overtime? Havent read much about tight players yet, the pots he's wrote about have been 3bet pre and post flop. Can see myself getting it in alot over the next few weeks with draws! lol Anyway still dunno the answer to the hand above, might do soon. Edit - 30 seconds later - his range just calling out of the small blind, is gonna be wide, It doesnt tell me alot. Obviously he could have a set of 8's or 3's. He would 3 bet with tens pre flop probably. Could have 2 overs and a flush draw, AJ, KJ, clubs - I have the queen. Wont have 9-jack Could have pocket 9's, maybe 66 or 77. I would think he would lead the flop, or check raise with sets.  Probably check call with the QKclubs type of hand. So I add all those hands up, and figure out if he folds with more than he would call/raise with? So wud fold the 66, 77, 99 hands  (3) Would call with the overs and flush draw, JK, JA of clubsad ace ten (3) (I got the queen, and believe he wud 3 bet pre flop with AKclubs) Would raise with sets, 88, 1010 (2) So Ive got the possible hands he could have down to 8, 3 of which he would fold, 3 he'd call again, and the other 2 he would raise me. However the 3 he would fold to another bet with, are probably the most unlikely holdings (bottom of his range?) Does this still make the bet work over time? I guess the middle of his range? - the overs and flush draws, if they dont improve, I can take it away on the river? So that leans back towards the bet again? K this is my first shot at breaking a hand down like this - all new, go easy on me, back to the book! DOHH
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Excellent, all makes perfect sense. Nigh on impossible to work out in 15 seconds though...

BlackFish3

I check back, but i guess there is thin value in betting if they have a draw?

Action_Dan

I'm betting again - keep the pressure on opponent as they could've called with pair to see what you do again so could force them off it and if they're drawing, we pick up some decent value if they call and miss on river! If sitting their with AA-10's I'd bet £10 so continue the story...

beaneh

In Response to Re: Slow down, or fire again?:

Just reading that super duper krazily expensive book about range, only read the first 4/5 chapters, but already thinking back to this hand. 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

what book? "Let There Be Range"? If so read it then forget everything then go back and learn the basics that all combine to get to the standard you need in LTBR. It is way too advanced for these games.

I'll have a proper read through your post in a bit this line just stood out at me !

DeuceAK_47

In Response to Re: Slow down, or fire again?:

In Response to Re: Slow down, or fire again? : what book? "Let There Be Range"? If so read it then forget everything then go back and learn the basics that all combine to get to the standard you need in LTBR. It is way too advanced for these games. I'll have a proper read through your post in a bit this line just stood out at me !
Posted by beaneh

Lol yeah i sent him let there be range....did warn him though that its meant for 5-10 players mainly.

As for the hand i dont think the villian is folding 99s on the flop but he might if hes really tight, also dont you think he would of check-raise two overs and a flush draw?

SwansFC

id bet about half the pot maybe just under and see what he does. If he flats I think he's drawing if he raises get out of there quick

TommyD

Perfect situation to bet again.  Fire another bullet and get ready to load another barrel for the river.  If he flats then checks again I'm following up with a bet on a non-club, non A or Q river (the later now giving me showdown value, I may consider value betting a river Q against the right player but IMO there is no point value betting a river A).

spornybol

it may be me but it seems he`s trappin i`d fire one more and c wat he does ??

DeuceAK_47

In Response to Re: Slow down, or fire again?:

Perfect situation to bet again.  Fire another bullet and get ready to load another barrel for the river.  If he flats then checks again I'm following up with a bet on a non-club, non A or Q river (the later now giving me showdown value, I may consider value betting a river Q against the right player but IMO there is no point value betting a river A).
Posted by TommyD

I like this thinking exept i would probably tripple barrel the river if a club hits as this villan is apparently a good tight player and i would of thought he would of folded a club draw on the turn to a second barrel if he didnt raise the flop

IMO the villian would of check raised most of their good club draws on the flop so i think their hand is more likely to be one pair hands like 99 or 109,  they probably wont fold those hands to a turn barrel on a blank 5 so i think its either a check back on the turn and hope to hit an ace or a queen or fire all three streets.

If i bet the turn i would make it around £10 leaving me less than a pot size shove all-in on the river.

Obviously this post could be way out so dont take it as the Bible lol...wheres Beaneh with the answer? :-)

DOHHHHHHH

This hand was on the club yesterday, i was on hold on the phone while they analysed the hand, I couldnt see, and didnt find out what he had but tk said he had "caught a piece of the flop" 

I did fire again, I only bet 7.50 though, which he must have read as weak, as he tanked over the top. 

Think he has something like 78 or 9 10, will find out monday

beaneh

"Okay my oppo here is a tight player.....I payed him at higher levels than this, so he cud be just messing about like I do with my mates lower down, who knows....."

This isn't quite a read. There are different sort of tight and looser players and everyone plays and thinks slightly differently. Be more specific how often does he bet flop after raising, what proportion of hands that he bets on the flop does he bet again on the turn and on what cards? These are the sort of things and details that you want to be thinking about.

"Just reading that super duper krazily expensive book about range, only read the first 4/5 chapters, but already thinking back to this hand. This is where the "over time" thing is gonna kick in I think, Im gonna have to be prepared to lose buy ins for fun, but believe in the method overtime? Havent read much about tight players yet, the pots he's wrote about have been 3bet pre and post flop. Can see myself getting it in alot over the next few weeks with draws! lol"

Firstly that book is way too advanced for sky, so yeah don't listen to a word it says about stacking off ranges and stuff especially in 3 bet pots.

"his range just calling out of the small blind, is gonna be wide, It doesnt tell me alot. Obviously he could have a set of 8's or 3's. He would 3 bet with tens pre flop probably."

What position on the table do y ou least want to play from? What position on the table is the worst? Should you loosen or tighten up when you are in this bad position? Is he really a decent tight player?

"So I add all those hands up, and figure out if he folds with more than he would call/raise with? So wud fold the 66, 77, 99 hands  (3)"

This is sort of right. Except that instead of classing pocket sixes as one instance you have to assess them using combinatrics (looking at the possible combinations of cards that can make each hand regardless of the order you list them [this isn't permutations]).

So instead of saying 66/77/99 = 3 combos = 3 hands.

You have 6s 6h 6c 6d

6s 6c

6s 6h

6s 6d

6d 6c

6h 6c

6d 6h

Those are the only way to make pocket sixes which is 6 combinations.

Now as an aside imagine that you know the 6 of spades was exposed and isn't in play,  there are now only 3 combinations, Similarly with AK there are 6 combinations of aces and 6 combinations of kings, there are 16 combinations of AK. So taking that further on if you have AcKc in your hand you have what are called blockers (Having AcKc reduces from 12 to 6 the number of possible combinations of aces and kings, so when you have AK you should be half as less expectant to see Aces or Kings as normal).

So in this instance you would say there are 18 combinations of those 3 pairs, 6 each. 

Does this all make sense now? I realise I haven't gone through the hand yet but I thought concepts would be better than a single hands discussion (as is I would bet flop as you did and then check back turn and think about value betting A and Q rivers and value bluffing K rivers too.

BlackFish3

In Response to Re: Slow down, or fire again?:

"Okay my oppo here is a tight player.....I payed him at higher levels than this, so he cud be just messing about like I do with my mates lower down, who knows....." This isn't quite a read. There are different sort of tight and looser players and everyone plays and thinks slightly differently. Be more specific how often does he bet flop after raising, what proportion of hands that he bets on the flop does he bet again on the turn and on what cards? These are the sort of things and details that you want to be thinking about. "Just reading that super duper krazily expensive book about range, only read the first 4/5 chapters, but already thinking back to this hand. This is where the "over time" thing is gonna kick in I think, Im gonna have to be prepared to lose buy ins for fun, but believe in the method overtime? Havent read much about tight players yet, the pots he's wrote about have been 3bet pre and post flop. Can see myself getting it in alot over the next few weeks with draws! lol" Firstly that book is way too advanced for sky, so yeah don't listen to a word it says about stacking off ranges and stuff especially in 3 bet pots. "his range just calling out of the small blind, is gonna be wide, It doesnt tell me alot. Obviously he could have a set of 8's or 3's. He would 3 bet with tens pre flop probably." What position on the table do y ou least want to play from? What position on the table is the worst? Should you loosen or tighten up when you are in this bad position? Is he really a decent tight player? "So I add all those hands up, and figure out if he folds with more than he would call/raise with? So wud fold the 66, 77, 99 hands  (3)" This is sort of right. Except that instead of classing pocket sixes as one instance you have to assess them using combinatrics (looking at the possible combinations of cards that can make each hand regardless of the order you list them [this isn't permutations]). So instead of saying 66/77/99 = 3 combos = 3 hands. You have 6s 6h 6c 6d 6s 6c 6s 6h 6s 6d 6d 6c 6h 6c 6d 6h Those are the only way to make pocket sixes which is 6 combinations. Now as an aside imagine that you know the 6 of spades was exposed and isn't in play,  there are now only 3 combinations, Similarly with AK there are 6 combinations of aces and 6 combinations of kings, there are 16 combinations of AK. So taking that further on if you have AcKc in your hand you have what are called blockers (Having AcKc reduces from 12 to 6 the number of possible combinations of aces and kings, so when you have AK you should be half as less expectant to see Aces or Kings as normal). So in this instance you would say there are 18 combinations of those 3 pairs, 6 each.  Does this all make sense now? I realise I haven't gone through the hand yet but I thought concepts would be better than a single hands discussion (as is I would bet flop as you did and then check back turn and think about value betting A and Q rivers and value bluffing K rivers too.
Posted by beaneh

nice post bean.
that's how i would play the hand.

beaneh

In Response to Slow down, or fire again?:

.....I payed him at higher levels than this
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

For some reason this really made me laugh lol