Is this a clear fold?

silentbob

Cash game NL20

I’ve only just joined the table (my 2^nd hand) & have absolutely no reads whatsoever on anyone. In fact, I don’t recognise any of the names at all.

Is this a really clear cut fold? I really struggled with it at the time & I’m still not sure I did the right thing. The ace could be a good card or a scare card for my opponent & with 2 pair I think I’m good here the majority of the time. My thought’s at the time were that I didn’t think he had something like AA/KK/QQ cos surely he’s either open raising pre flop or at least 3 betting me pre so I don’t think I’m up against a set (I must admit, I didn’t think about the possibility of a set of 4’s at the time for some reason). There’s plenty of other 2 pair type hands he could also have, as well as the only 2 holdings I don’t want to see here (J10 & AK).

In my mind I think I’ve really only got 2 options:

1 – Fold 

2 – Shove. 

I don’t think calling is the right thing to do here simply because if I don’t improve on the river & he shoves surely I still have to call?What does anyone else do here with no info on the player involved?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
silentbob	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£19.70
ROMAN	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£22.63
	Your hole cards	Q A
Rumpy	Fold
sahasrala	Fold
LANCEY	Fold
OPPONENT	Call		£0.20	£0.50	£17.05
silentbob	Raise		£0.70	£1.20	£19.00
ROMAN	Call		£0.60	£1.80	£22.03
OPPONENT	Call		£0.60	£2.40	£16.45
Flop
		4 Q K
silentbob	Bet		£1.20	£3.60	£17.80
ROMAN	Call		£1.20	£4.80	£20.83
OPPONENT	Call		£1.20	£6.00	£15.25
Turn
		A
silentbob	Bet		£5.00	£11.00	£12.80
ROMAN	Fold
OPPONENT	Raise		£10.00	£21.00	£5.25
silentbob	?????

belsibub

No raise preflop prob not ak pkt 4s or j10 but if an agresive player could be a rag.Had you seen him show any hands?

richtea

Shove. If they've got J10 kick yourself, reload, and remember to raise more pre-flop with a strong starting hand when you're in the worst position post-flop.
If they've got pocket 4s then it's a cooler, keep your head held high and think to yourself at least you're not an uber-nit.
If they've got a high set then just type wp, but they would most probably 3-bet pf with that.  

OMahonyO

Personally I would raise more pre flop to maybe £1.  But as you played it, with no reads I am never folding there.  I`d be getting the lot in deffo.

DOHHHHHHH

When they raise like that - they almost always believe they are winning at these lower mid stakes levels.

Everytime I am raised on the turn, I sigh, they rarely make bluffs or even semi bluffs.

What you gotta try and figure out is if you can beat the hands that he could have, were he could believe he is winning.

I think he has ten jack. 

Ive been thinking, why I can never explain to others why I do what I do in a certain situation. Its because when you find yourself in a certain situation so often, it just becomes habit. You know what to do, even though you cant explain why you have to do it - Does it matter? the explanation doesnt win/save you money - clicking raise or fold does.

He's turned the nuts here, but can I fold it? - its horrible - I know I should, but I wont.

Id type "TJ?" in the chatbox, then shove.

DeuceAK_47

This is such a tough spot without reads but i would probably fold, we think their a bad player as their limping on the button but it just depend's what type of bad player, are they tight/passive, loose/aggro or loose passive.
As there is more loose passive players at this level i would go with that assumption and fold my hand as loose passive players dont raise with out the nuts very often. (in my experience they would not raise a lower two pair very often on this board so they probably have J10 like Dohhhhhhh said.)

YoungUn

Readless i'm shoving here all the time. If i'm beat I just hmph and reload on the rare occasion I don't bink an Ace on the river.

I'd usually raise to £1 PF, though that probably makes little difference, and I definitely bet more than 50% pot on the flop, allows me to define the hand a little better.

silentbob

Cheers guys

With only 15 seconds to decide (it's exactly these sort of situations I could do with a time bank on cash games) & having no info on the guy I decided that I'm good here more often than not so shoved. Unfortunately he flipped over J10 so it was a quick reload from me!

In hindsight it was so obvious he might as well have flipped his cards straight after raising. I think part of my problem is that sometimes I'm too nitty in these kind of spots & it's something I'm trying to improve on.

Given that he's limp/called PF, are most people folding pre if I do raise a bit more, especially as the big blind came along for the ride?