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Shoving UTG with 23o and no fold equity
On "The League" the week before last, an experienced player went all-in "under the gun" with 23o when he had such a small stack that it was impossible for the big blind to fold (unless he was asleep).
Mr. Giddins could find no explanation at the time.
I am always keen to play devil's advocate so I suggested the reason was that he stood to win a bigger pot than if he waited until the next hand, i.e. both of the blinds would be in the pot in addition to his own stack, at least.
Also, is 23 really any different to 85, for example, which is what he might get next hand.
What do you think?
I didn't create this as a poll because I'd rather see some debate about it rather than just a vote.
P.S. I've started this thread here so that it might generate some comment before tonight's show. It may get discussed on tonight's live broadcast so if you're a TV Tart like myself get posting!
Mr. Giddins could find no explanation at the time.
I am always keen to play devil's advocate so I suggested the reason was that he stood to win a bigger pot than if he waited until the next hand, i.e. both of the blinds would be in the pot in addition to his own stack, at least.
Also, is 23 really any different to 85, for example, which is what he might get next hand.
What do you think?
I didn't create this as a poll because I'd rather see some debate about it rather than just a vote.
P.S. I've started this thread here so that it might generate some comment before tonight's show. It may get discussed on tonight's live broadcast so if you're a TV Tart like myself get posting!
Comments
my thoughts on what you have posted are...
1. Obviously we shouldnt get so low to reach this impossible dilemma
2. if we are prepared to shove it in with 23 here, why did we get so low in the first place..? can only think we had an accident in the same round vs someone with a similar stack and got left with the small change...
3. i believe it is better to wait for the big blind, because you are likley to get a much better hand than 23, and you may also get it vs one opponant which would be more favourable imo.
4 you make the point that you want to get it in vs three or four players to win a bigger pot. im not sure about this, because if this is for my tournament i would rather get it in vs one opponant and then shove on the next button or sb.
hoggers
I also can't remember the exact stack sizes but let's assume that the BB is 1000 and he has 1700 chips.
So, if he waits for the next hand and is HU against the SB, he will have 3400 chips IF he wins.
If he wins this hand against the BB, he will have at least 3900 chips.
It doesn't seem like many more chips but it might make a difference.
I have no strong feelings either way.
if its me and im tilting i shove it in with atc in that spot without thinking
if im not tilting, i fold and hope for a big blind special
im not even sure if one of your mathmatical equasions with +ev stuff etc, could answer this question (although it probably could i just wont understand it!), and although its an interesting and rare spot to find oneself in, i think that the "side tracked" issue is much more important here..
jmo, hoggers
When things get really dire, pick the pot to enter not the hand to go in with.
Admittedly if anyone not in the blinds gets involved they are unlikely to hold a 2 or 3.
However, since the BB will definitely call it is his hand that is most relevant and he is as likely to have a 2 or 3 in his hand as any other card (discounting the fact that it rather less likely since you have one of each in your hand which is an equal argument for any cards the UTG player holds).
if u get looked up by 2 paint cards for example, you're in front, if u get looked up by most pairs u have 1 over and the small pairs 2 overs.
id rather run Ax into any of those hands than 67s for example.
if you were to follow the theory then you would neva push with hands like KJ, KT .... incase you run into AK, KQ etc... and so on and so on