Going for gold - too much?

MereNovice · June 2010

OK, you'll have to excuse my fishy play on this hand. All I'm really interested about is your opinions on the play on the river.

I had been playing a very basic relaxing game (not so much ABC, probably more AB) at 20NLHE this morning against some rather "exuberant" players who were happy to go all-in on the flop for about 200bb in an un-raised pot or to raise 100bb pre-flop after a couple of limpers. My opponent in this hand was one of the more sedate players. I had been playing a passive game trying to trap and had only had to show one semi-bluff in about an hour of play.

My question is: "Should I have gone for a smaller check raise or is it right to hope that he's got a boat and, if he's going to call any raise he will also call an all-in"? Does the over-raise look like a desperate bluff or are players at 20NLHE not going to fall for that? Should I have bet out on the river hoping to get raised? What size bets should I have made?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
MereNovice	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£61.39
p1	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£7.24
	Your hole cards	10 7
villain	Call		£0.20	£0.50	£65.13
p3	Fold
MereNovice	Call		£0.10	£0.60	£61.29
p1	Check
Flop
		J 8 Q
MereNovice	Check
p1	Check
villain	Check
Turn
		J
MereNovice	Check
p1	Check
villain	Bet		£0.80	£1.40	£64.33
MereNovice	Call		£0.80	£2.20	£60.49
p1	Fold
River
		9
MereNovice	Check
villain	Bet		£2.20	£4.40	£62.13
MereNovice	All-in		£60.49	£64.89	£0.00
villain	Fold
MereNovice	Muck
MereNovice	Win		£6.27		£6.27
MereNovice	Return		£58.29	£0.33	£64.56

The_Don90 · June 2010

To be fair if im your opponent here i see this as a massive bluff. The overbet give out that image. As you know the overbets teand to look like bluffs, although maybe all in suggests im willing to place my entire cash fund on this, so what id usually do is bet two or three times the size of the pot, make it look like your not wanting to go all in.

Most opponents who've hit and reconise this as a bluff are either calling, wanting to see what you've bluffed with or re-raising to see how far your willing to go. The latter is obviously the prefered one here as you have the nuts.

Thats just the way i'd play it and im sure there will be far more experianced players with different views on this.

BlackFish3 · June 2010

I think I donk bet pot on the river so that trips jacks, a queen etc can't just check behind.

When you check raise I dont really mind the check raise jam, A of clubs might call, boats might get it in etc.

But I really prefer the donk bet so trip jacks, weaker club might call, boat/ace of clubs might raise and then you can jam all in.

BlackFish3 · June 2010

In Response to Re: Going for gold - too much?:

To be fair if im your opponent here i see this as a massive bluff. The overbet give out that image. As you know the overbets teand to look like bluffs, although maybe all in suggests im willing to place my entire cash fund on this, so what id usually do is bet two or three times the size of the pot, make it look like your not wanting to go all in. Most opponents who've hit and reconise this as a bluff are either calling, wanting to see what you've bluffed with or re-raising to see how far your willing to go. The latter is obviously the prefered one here as you have the nuts. Thats just the way i'd play it and im sure there will be far more experianced players with different views on this.
Posted by The_Don90

this is never a bluff... why would you jam for that amount to win the tiny pot as a bluff???

The_Don90 · June 2010

In Response to Re: Going for gold - too much?:

In Response to Re: Going for gold - too much? : this is never a bluff... why would you jam for that amount to win the tiny pot as a bluff???
Posted by BlackFish3

Thats why i think it appears as a bluff to steal the pot. It kills all the pot odds to call.

BlackFish3 · June 2010

In Response to Re: Going for gold - too much?:

In Response to Re: Going for gold - too much? : Thats why i think it appears as a bluff to steal the pot. It kills all the pot odds to call.
Posted by The_Don90

No, it's never a bluff because it would be the worst bluff in the world ever. Why would you shove 60 quid to win couple quid in the pot? It's always the nuts.

The_Don90 · June 2010

In Response to Re: Going for gold - too much?:

In Response to Re: Going for gold - too much? : No, it's never a bluff because it would be the worst bluff in the world ever. Why would you shove 60 quid to win couple quid in the pot? It's always the nuts.
Posted by BlackFish3

Different opinions, i did say i expected that.

As i said it appears as an uncallable bluff to me. It kills the pot odds, which means its not a value bet, which in most cases the nuts would go for.

However as youve said why bet £60 to risk a couple of quid, but thats why a number of players, not saying MereNovice is one of these would shove like this.

MereNovice · June 2010

I've stuck the lot in before at this level (or thereabouts) with the nuts and got called - some people are just plain inquisitive!

Also, my thinking here was that people are more inclined to pay to see the straight flush. I was hoping for a call by any full house, tbh. Given the fact that other players had been wildly over-betting fairly regularly, I was hoping that he might "crack".

MereNovice · June 2010

Given that he also was seriously deep stacked, I reckon that I would need to get called about one time in ten to fifteen to make this preferable to a value raise (which still might not get paid).

BlackFish3 · June 2010

But if you value donk bet river, boat and ace of clubs (the hands you will be able to stack) are likely to raise, that's when you can jam them for the full stacks.

Seriously, trust me don, this is never a bluff that deep stacked. Im sure the better players on here that post will agree.

pryce6 · June 2010

Yeah that's never a bluff.

zing · June 2010

this is fine if you've seen him lose quite a few pots recently so he's a bit tilty and more likely to call you off but as your image is clean and he hasn't been getting out of line and "sedate" in general, i'd imagine a raise to 8ish will be more profitable in this spot.