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Line check with top pair
I have just joined the table and have no reads on the villain at all:
Should I have raised on the flop or the turn? I didn't really see the value in doing that at the time as I couldn't see the hands that would continue against a raise that I could beat (apart from J-10). And what do you think of the value bet on the end...I tried to make it small enough to get called by a Q.
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| starfox | Small blind | £0.50 | £0.50 | £64.20 | |
| plywood | Big blind | £1.00 | £1.50 | £258.38 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| yb | Raise | £4.00 | £5.50 | £92.50 | |
| TheSwan | Fold | ||||
| pocketsaa | Fold | ||||
| Dandax | Fold | ||||
| starfox | Call | £3.50 | £9.00 | £60.70 | |
| plywood | Fold | ||||
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| starfox | Bet | £4.50 | £13.50 | £56.20 | |
| yb | Call | £4.50 | £18.00 | £88.00 | |
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| starfox | Bet | £9.00 | £27.00 | £47.20 | |
| yb | Call | £9.00 | £36.00 | £79.00 | |
| River | |||||
| |||||
| starfox | Check | ||||
| yb | Bet | £18.00 | £54.00 | £61.00 | |
Comments
Tbh I like the way you played it, with no reads on the villain there is no need to go mad here, great example of pot control and not going mad with Top pair. You have got to think your top pair is good here but caution is the best tactic with no reads imo. The river bet I think is fine - half pot is plenty and maybe you could have considered £12-£14 as I have seen been done at times but for me half pot is spot on if making a value bet.
There are times where I would even consider a check on the river tbh just in case the villain is preparing a check - raise, rather nitty maybe but at times caution is the best way when entering a new table v players I have no reads on. It is also nice to check behind in order to find out what they are calling with oop just in case they check fold.
Plz feel free to slate my logic as Im tryin to get to grips with this `extracting value` thingy, but cant see it in this spot.
After he checked the river I discounted the monster, so I thought I would bet for value against a range that would include most Kx and Qx type hands (obviously if he calls and shows K-J I hate myself). Fwiw I thought his calling range pre-flop might be wide as he hadn't bought in full.
If he bets half pot again on the river I call, but anything much more than that I'm probably leading towards a fold...definitely fold readless if he shoves because he still has a decent sized stack behind.
In Response to Re: Line check with top pair:
not too long ago dohhhhhhh started a thread asking people of all levels and abilitys to post more in the clinic. reponses like that and arrogance (quite surprising as your only a 50nl player--not phil ivey) are exactly the reason many players don't post things in this area.ok so i know **** all about poker, ill admit that. but rather than responding like this to my question why not tell me why im wrong and maybe offer advice??
raise utg. call the flop. raise turn = looks super strong. why call all the way down the streets with a hand which by the river may be losing? if the guy is holding KJ and he bets every street and you call youve lost the pot. if he is holding J/10 and he bets all the streets and u call and he completes on the river you have lost (obviously no straights were completed in this hand) but you wasnt to know the river card at the time.
a raise on the flop/turn (i choose turn for this hand) makes your hand look alot stronger than what it is and you could make the better hand fold and you are also not letting the villian see all 5 cards cheaply if he is on a draw, you are also not letting the pot spiral out of control because you only flatted the flop. if your beat a raise on the turn will evoke a reaction if its a positive reaction from the villian then obviously you can let the hand go. for the same price as it would have cost ya if you called turn called river if he bet. you will have a much better idea of where you are. the last thing i would want in this hand, is for a hand like J/10 to complete on the river and you let him get there cheaply. I know about pot control and all that, but i dont see much difference money wise raising the turn and acting accordingly (or winning the pot!) to calling all the way down. and the reason i choose to turn to raise rather than flop is because it looks alot stronger imo.
if the hand is KJ and you called all the way down would people still say this is correct play? if the hand is J/10 and you call all the way down and lets say he hits on the river would people still say this is the correct play? ... it looks good because the guy gives up on the river and you make a excellent value bet imo. im just curious because obviously im not the greatest player in the world so if im wrong (which like ive said i know i am!) i would like to know why im wrong! im not writing this telling you u played it wrong because im no-where near qualified too im writing this to learn/improve my game.
i just really cant be doing with arrogant replys from ppl who think they are sooooo much better than what they actually are!, by all means criticise me and tell me im wrong, but a response like 'RAISE TURN IS LOL' how is that helping anybody???
if you raise the turn with KT you are turning you're hand into a bluff, turning made hands into bluffs is fine and on the right boards vs thinking players works very well, the problem comes when you are trying to make villain fold TP2K or better for 60bbs, who we have a fairly solid idea that he probably isnt that great, it just simply doesnt happen unless his mouse dies before he can click call.
also in this case if you make it £25 on the turn and villain shoves you will be getting atleast 3:1 the remaining £30. you should fold but i imagine most people would talk themselves into calling by saying he has JT.
the point about him having JT and you 'protect' your hand does make sense, but there are 44 unknown cards (we soulread him for JT at this point) with only 8 of them improving his hand so 36 do not. as he's chosen to lead out twice with an OESD i think there's a pretty good chance he will bet the river when he misses also.
you made the point about raising the turn vs calling all the way down, but we dont have to call every river card for any price, if villain makes a big bet on the river we can quite safely fold with no reads and if the river is a blank (like in the actual hand) then calling another half pot bet when hands like AJ,AT,JT all miss.
betting river small is best when checked to although i wouldnt be too surprised for villain to either jam (66,KQ) or call (AK,KJ,AA,67?) but if you bet small enough stuff like Kxs,AQ,QJ will pay you off (although it is a bit rubbish that the board runs out how it does as im sure he can have K7s,K8s)
as for the hand itself i was fully aware when posting my reasons that i was wrong and i stated it numerous times in my post, but i posted it to get replys that would help/improve me (and others) the reply from LOL RAISE is spot on, and was the type of thing i was looking for.
and eagle dont take it to heart this forum is tamer than any other in the world