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Advice wanted?

Patching99Patching99
edited July 2010 in The Poker Clinic
finster Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £4.26
Archimedes Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £2.98
  Your hole cards
  • Q
  • Q
     
becko Fold     
dorithy Fold     
Patching99 Raise  £0.16 £0.22 £3.73
alcando Call  £0.16 £0.38 £3.45
finster Fold     
1 Call  £0.12 £0.50 £2.86
Flop
   
  • 7
  • J
  • 9
     
1 Check     
Patching99 Bet  £0.36 £0.86 £3.37
alcando Fold     
1 Call  £0.36 £1.22 £2.50
Turn
   
  • 6
     
1 Check     
Patching99 ???   
4NL, been on table 10mins.  I have no reads or notes on the player which I know is not very helpful.  It takes me a long time to work out what players are doing and they often don't stay long at this level.
Questions:
Preflop raise is too small?
Flop bet?  Again too small a bet here?
What do I do next?
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Comments

  • harvey23harvey23
    edited July 2010
    flop bet is to small bet 50-70p


    the turn changes nothing, bet again around 75% pot.

    they will be calling with TPTK and Ax flush draws, so make them pay
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited July 2010

    Why wud u bet more than the pot on the flop, then less than the pot on the turn, if the turn changes nothing?
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  • harvey23harvey23
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted?:
    Why wud u bet more than the pot on the flop, then less than the pot on the turn, if the turn changes nothing?
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    if I read correctly the pot is 86p on the flop

    and £1.12 on the turn no?

    im not used to this sort of hand converter
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted?:
    Why wud u bet more than the pot on the flop, then less than the pot on the turn, if the turn changes nothing?
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    It's no limit you can choose your bet size and if you have the best hand they are willing to call why not?!
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited July 2010

    Ahhh that explains it then the pot is 86p including the c bet - after the action pre flop, the pot is 50p

    I agree that betting pot or even over the pot ie, 50-70p is fine at this level on sky - just wondered why you would slow down on the turn, but the above explains it.
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  • mr_mbromr_mbro
    edited July 2010
    Hi Guys,
    Dohhhhhhh, nice to have you back m8.

    To the hand,
    Dont mind any of the play, so far, but what info do you have from the betting. It does suggest that your opponent may be playing a made flush, given that you are making the running and ha e is check calling.
    So put in a pot size(at least) bet, if you dont think he is has hit the flush or set then be prepared to get it all in.

    One further thought, most people at this level will call a 4x pre- flop bet with big cards AK TO A10, PAIRS ETC, not usually with preminum busting hands, so you CAN narrow it down a bit.
    col
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited July 2010
    I think flop bet is fine, anything over 2/3 is kl. Could be more but dont matter too much.
    Bet like 2/3 or something on turn.
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited July 2010
    I would defo bet above 45p as if their calling 36 they'll call 45 and tbh might as well just make it pot. On turn after being called bet 80%+ of pot and then again if the river seems safe.
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited July 2010
    The reason I think the flop bet is fine is I just always c bet like 60-80% pot so that my c bet bluffs are cheap as they will be more common than c bets for value. I know it dont matter at micros but im thinking its good habit to get into?
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  • ybyb
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted?:
    The reason I think the flop bet is fine is I just always c bet like 60-80% pot so that my c bet bluffs are cheap as they will be more common than c bets for value. I know it dont matter at micros but im thinking its good habit to get into?
    Posted by BlackFish3
    It depends on the board texture though. This flop is very draw heavy so we need to protect by betting more imo (around 45p), my cbet bluffs would also be this size on that board to balance my range.

    If we raise with AQ and the flop comes K84r then 60% is fine.


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  • harvey23harvey23
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted?:
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted? : It depends on the board texture though. This flop is very draw heavy so we need to protect by betting more imo (around 45p), my cbet bluffs would also be this size on that board to balance my range. If we raise with AQ and the flop comes K84r then 60% is fine.
    Posted by yb
    at 2/4p there is no need to balance
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited July 2010
    Id probs go for 40p. Anyways these are minor differences. Just bet turn lol. Something around a quid should do it.

    And harvey... just a good habit to get into?
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  • harvey23harvey23
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted?:
    Id probs go for 40p. Anyways these are minor differences. Just bet turn lol. Something around a quid should do it. And harvey... just a good habit to get into?
    Posted by BlackFish3
    I dont think it is myself, why bet 45p with your good hands and 45p with your bluffs, when you could bet around 30p with your bluffs and still get players to fold. the times they do call and you give up you save yourself 15p.

    Obviously at the higher levels this is exploitable but at the micros, i think its more then fine
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  • lynx3ffectlynx3ffect
    edited July 2010
    betting slightly more on flop would be preferable but not the end of the world....the turn is pretty much the best card for you as nothing gets there that wasnt already beating you, given villains check its safe to assume unless he has a monster you are still way ahead as any small flopped flush or straight is usually betting out here for value and to not give you a free card if you have AhXx....

    so turn bet strong again so about £1, which sets you up for the perfect river shove of 2.3 into 3.5 and he'll be pot committed.....you should be going for max value hence why the bets are with a view to getting it all in at some stage. However, each street should be bet fold in this instance as you are well behind any hand thats c/raising you on this board.

    If the river bricks, so no heart/8 or T and he checks then obv shove, if the river bricks and he shoves i call, obv if an awful card coems and he shoves you fold or check behind
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  • ybyb
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted?:
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted? : at 2/4p there is no need to balance
    Posted by harvey23
    Yeah true....I was talking more generally than this specific hand.

    Blackfish, is there much point in cbet bluffing at 2/4p unless its a really dry board?
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted?:
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted? : I dont think it is myself, why bet 45p with your good hands and 45p with your bluffs, when you could bet around 30p with your bluffs and still get players to fold. the times they do call and you give up you save yourself 15p. Obviously at the higher levels this is exploitable but at the micros, i think its more then fine
    Posted by harvey23
    as i keep saying... good habit to get into when you do move up. Im sure those 15p's wont really matter.
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted?:
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted? : Yeah true....I was talking more generally than this specific hand. Blackfish, is there much point in cbet bluffing at 2/4p unless its a really dry board?
    Posted by yb
    of course!
    1. 2 overs might even be good so it would turn into a bet for value without you realising.
    2. more likely to be semi bluff than stone cold bluff with 2 overs etc.
    3. people do fold at micro stakes, they fold very easily to c bets, fold over 50% of flops to c bets according to 100k micro stakes hands i have.

    people say never bluff at micro stakes, message should be more dont fire many multiple barrel bluffs without a strong draw or good turn card. Fire once and give up generally works well.
    Obvs you are unlikely to get people off 2nd pair and they never fold top pair unless they are not terrible. But 1 barrel usually is very profitable.
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  • lynx3ffectlynx3ffect
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted?:
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted? : as i keep saying... good habit to get into when you do move up. Im sure those 15p's wont really matter.
    Posted by BlackFish3
    not true, harvey is right, when betting dry boards its definately a good idea to bet the minimum you think you can get away with for the c-bet to work....in saying those 15ps dont matter, they do when its 4x the bb? all relative to the stacks ur playing and it all adds up
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted?:
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted? : not true, harvey is right, when betting dry boards its definately a good idea to bet the minimum you think you can get away with for the c-bet to work....in saying those 15ps dont matter, they do when its 4x the bb? all relative to the stacks ur playing and it all adds up
    Posted by lynx3ffect
    think u misunderstood me. Im talking about getting into good habits in preparation for moving up to higher stakes. So trading off a few 15ps to get into good habits for moving up is worth it i think. So it isnt just relative if you see it the way im looking at it from.
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  • harvey23harvey23
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted?:
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted? : think u misunderstood me. Im talking about getting into good habits in preparation for moving up to higher stakes. So trading off a few 15ps to get into good habits for moving up is worth it i think. So it isnt just relative if you see it the way im looking at it from.
    Posted by BlackFish3
    I dont agree here, you will find fish at all stakes up to 200nl. You should adjust your bet sizing accordlying, I mean if i bet 40% pot against a reg they will take it for weakness, but if you know the player is weak who is not very good, you can bet your bluffs at 40% pot, because your bet sizing is what we call ecstatic. Which means they are either going to call or fold, regardless of bet size. So make it the smallest you can against them when bluffing, and maximise it for value. By saying its a good habbit to blanace at the lower stakes, players are just gointg to be bleeding money on there bluffs.
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  • ybyb
    edited July 2010
    Harvey if you're saying we should c-bet 40% of pot when we miss (and obviously if we hit we would bet more than this for value) then this is very exploitable. I don't agree that you'll be able to use this style all the way up to 200nl. Even some of the weaker players at 50nl/100nl etc. will be able to see through this, especially as most of them will think on a basic level that small bet = weakness.
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  • ybyb
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted?:
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted? : of course! 1. 2 overs might even be good so it would turn into a bet for value without you realising. 2. more likely to be semi bluff than stone cold bluff with 2 overs etc. 3. people do fold at micro stakes, they fold very easily to c bets, fold over 50% of flops to c bets according to 100k micro stakes hands i have. people say never bluff at micro stakes, message should be more dont fire many multiple barrel bluffs without a strong draw or good turn card. Fire once and give up generally works well. Obvs you are unlikely to get people off 2nd pair and they never fold top pair unless they are not terrible. But 1 barrel usually is very profitable.
    Posted by BlackFish3
    Ok cool, I never knew the fold % was so high at the micro stakes. Definitely worth c-bet bluffing most boards then, seeing as we only need to make them fold about 40% of the time to make it profitable, and that's not even including the times when they call our flop c-bet bluff and then we hit on the turn etc.

    How do you get those stats off here btw? Or is it hands from a different site?

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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted?:
    In Response to Re: Advice wanted? : Ok cool, I never knew the fold % was so high at the micro stakes. Definitely worth c-bet bluffing most boards then, seeing as we only need to make them fold about 40% of the time to make it profitable, and that's not even including the times when they call our flop c-bet bluff and then we hit on the turn etc. How do you get those stats off here btw? Or is it hands from a different site?
    Posted by yb
    ya my c bet is like 80-90% i think. and its from holdem manager on FT.
    its the common misconception with micro stakes, people never fold.
    Yes you get some calling you down with 3 high. But most just play fit or fold on the flop and so fold a ton of the time and there is just dead money hitting you in the face.
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  • Patching99Patching99
    edited July 2010
    finster Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £4.26
    1 Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £2.98
      Your hole cards
    • Q
    • Q
    		     
    becko Fold     
    dorithy Fold     
    Patching99 Raise  £0.16 £0.22 £3.73
    alcando Call  £0.16 £0.38 £3.45
    finster Fold     
    1 Call  £0.12 £0.50 £2.86
    Flop
       
    • 7
    • J
    • 9
    		     
    1 Check     
    Patching99 Bet  £0.36 £0.86 £3.37
    alcando Fold     
    1 Call  £0.36 £1.22 £2.50
    Turn
       
    • 6
    		     
    1 Check     
    Patching99 Check     
    River
       
    • 6
    		     
    1 All-in  £2.50 £3.72 £0.00
    Cheers everyone, consider making the flop bet bigger and 3/4 to pot on the turn seems to be the standard view.

    I was thinking of how much to bet, time running down, ended up checking.  I knew this was awful at the time, unsure why I checked but there you go. 

    Right, next step, another 6 falls and player goes insta all-in.

    Call?
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  • Patching99Patching99
    edited July 2010
    Anyone fancy giving their advice on the River decision?
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE
    edited July 2010
    snap call, you has overpair and draws bricked, you beat a good portion of his value range (you now beat all hsi flopped 2pair) and you also beat all his bluffs.

    balance is generally overated imo, you should just play maximally exploitative at small stakes. just be aware that as you move up people will take more notice of you  so super obvious things like bet sizing tells will cost you alot of money in the future
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