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Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?

mattlessmattless
edited August 2010 in The Poker Clinic
This is a hand from last nights BH. I have just joined the table so have no real reads. I have been thinking about my bet size on flop. I realise I am a little unlucky but if I bet 1/2 pot on flop can I get away? Anymore and I'm commited anyway, hence all-in. Thoughts please.
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
volcan0 Small blind   300.00 300.00 11120.00
Forest1975 Big blind   600.00 900.00 10292.50
  Your hole cards
  • J
  • J
     
Shrub Fold        
mattless Raise   1800.00 2700.00 9090.00
loydon Fold        
x
 Call   1800.00 4500.00 22258.00
volcan0 Fold        
Forest1975 Fold        
Flop
   
  • 10
  • 5
  • 10
     
mattless All-in   9090.00 13590.00 0.00
x
 Call   9090.00 22680.00 13168.00
mattless Show
  • J
  • J
     
x
 Show
  • A
  • 10
     
Turn
   
  • 7
     
River
   
  • 3
     
x
 Win Three 10s 22680.00   35848.00
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Comments

  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited August 2010
    You have 18 BB's before the action gets to you, I would raise it to 1400 which gets same answer. Then with a pot of 3700 bet about 2100 then you can possibly get away from it with 12 BB's remaining, but it's a pretty tough spot.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited August 2010
    I'd raise to 2400 pre, then shove flop GL if they got 10 but thats a good flop generally for most hands that would call a 4 bet pre
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    don't shove flop, bet half pot and cawl it off. if he has a ten so what
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited August 2010
    Why would you want to call it of but not the other way?? usually its best to shove then call
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  • CowgomooCowgomoo
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    Why would you want to call it of but not the other way?? usually its best to shove then call
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    If you bet you can get called by Ace high alot of the time, any smaller pocket pairs, and it allows him to try and bluff you. All of these we can get value from. Shoving can only get called by a 10, he cant bluff and he wont call us light.
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  • mattlessmattless
    edited August 2010
    If I bet 1/2 pot bet or just over on flop is it the right move to fold to a shove? If he calls I probably shove on turn anyway.
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  • ybyb
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    don't shove flop, bet half pot and cawl it off. if he has a ten so what
    Posted by beaneh
    we lose :(
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape? : If you bet you can get called by Ace high alot of the time, any smaller pocket pairs, and it allows him to try and bluff you. All of these we can get value from. Shoving can only get called by a 10, he cant bluff and he wont call us light.
    Posted by Cowgomoo
    True thats just how i would play it, am average a tourneys imo will go deep more often then not its just about picking the right spots, although lately mine have been unlucky and occasionally wrong time thats tournament poker for you. Think with the extra bet pre it actually weeds out any 2 as 3 betting although good at this spot will still get the strange call which we dont want
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  • ybyb
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape? : True thats just how i would play it, am average a tourneys imo will go deep more often then not its just about picking the right spots, although lately mine have been unlucky and occasionally wrong time thats tournament poker for you. Think with the extra bet pre it actually weeds out any 2 as 3 betting although good at this spot will still get the strange call which we dont want
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    why don't we want to get called by any 2 when we have JJ? 4x raising when the stacks are this short is far too much imo
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    If I bet 1/2 pot bet or just over on flop is it the right move to fold to a shove? If he calls I probably shove on turn anyway.
    Posted by mattless


    no, 



    the whole point is by betting half pot on the flop (ie weak relative to pot size) it looks like we might fold if he shoves therefore increasing his range of hand that he continues with.

    by shoving if he folds all but a ten what is the point of that?


    and yb I thought the aim was to lose, that must be what i've been doing wrong these last two years :(
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  • mattlessmattless
    edited August 2010

    I agree with yb. I want a call from A10 in this spot so for this reason and my stack size 4xbb pre is too much, but can I get off it with a smaller bet on the flop, I'm not sure. I think I went out in 88th. 60 cashed, if I do bet 1/2 pot on flop and he shoves I might lay it down if I simply wanted to cash, but too win or good cash I think I still call.

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  • mattlessmattless
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape? : no,  the whole point is by betting half pot on the flop (ie weak relative to pot size) it looks like we might fold if he shoves therefore increasing his range of hand that he continues with. by shoving if he folds all but a ten what is the point of that? and yb I thought the aim was to lose, that must be what i've been doing wrong these last two years :(
    Posted by beaneh
    I agree he only calls my shove with a 10. So shove wrong, but are you saying 1/2 pot bet on flop and then call a shove, which means you don't think I can get away from it?
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  • N1CKN1CK
    edited August 2010
    i shove this hand utg+1 with 18 BBs, what do you think of that then? lol
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  • lynx3ffectlynx3ffect
    edited August 2010
    you're all too results orientated....i would bet half pot at most, this is a good flop for JJ and we want him to call with worse as yb says....its not a draw heavy board so dont need to bet to protect, we want to either get value from worse pp or induce some sp4z shove by A high so 1/4 - 1/2 pot is best and snap call a shove

    as yb says, overbet shoving you are onyl getting called by a ten usually unless they decide to be a hero

    without doubt long term u shud be betting much smaller to keep in worse
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape? : I agree he only calls my shove with a 10. So shove wrong, but are you saying 1/2 pot bet on flop and then call a shove, which means you don't think I can get away from it?
    Posted by mattless

    As I said here.....

    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    don't shove flop, bet half pot and cawl it off. if he has a ten so what
    Posted by beaneh
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited August 2010

    If he bets half the pot, then folds to a shove, he's still in the tournament.

    Im not good enough to do this myself, and wud bet, and call the resulting shove.

    Knowing you did "the right thing over time" is no consolation when your searching the lobby at 10-30 looking for another game.

    Wud be amazing if u cud get off the hand - but doubt many people, if anyone - who plays on sky wud be good enough to do this.

    ul.
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    If he bets half the pot, then folds to a shove, he's still in the tournament. Im not good enough to do this myself, and wud bet, and call the resulting shove. Knowing you did "the right thing over time" is no consolation when your searching the lobby at 10-30 looking for another game. Wud be amazing if u cud get off the hand - but doubt many people, if anyone - who plays on sky wud be good enough to do this. ul.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH

    I swear to god you must be on a windup, your stupidity is incredible.


    Of  1000 times that we raise pf and the flop comes paired, what proportion of those times will they have hit trips?

    Is there any chance they will stack off with hands other than Tx? are we beating those?

    if the answer to the last two questions are yes, then you need to work out what is the best in the long run, BECUASE THAT WAY YOU ARE MAKING THE BEST PLAY WITH THE INFORMATION YOU HAVE NOT WITH THE STUPID RESULTS ORIENTATED THINKING YOU EMPLOY.




    GAWD IM SO TILTED.
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  • CowgomooCowgomoo
    edited August 2010
    Deep breaths beaneh, count to 10.
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    Deep breaths beaneh, count to 10.
    Posted by Cowgomoo

    1


    2


    3


    4


    feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek


    6

    7
    8


    aewrlj;anhlwej tawj'ethqawt a#t
    qaw
    ab eqwpr atqw
    ]a


    ]
    haerp thaewrt
    g
    awe[tg jaewrpgt ae
    w
    awer]thawerp gt





    TEN




    Thanks, needed that Mr Moo :)
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  • N1CKN1CK
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    If he bets half the pot, then folds to a shove, he's still in the tournament. Im not good enough to do this myself, and wud bet, and call the resulting shove. Knowing you did "the right thing over time" is no consolation when your searching the lobby at 10-30 looking for another game. Wud be amazing if u cud get off the hand - but doubt many people, if anyone - who plays on sky wud be good enough to do this. ul.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    do you mean BAD?
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited August 2010

    lol :)

    I wont get into another debate on this thread again - it annoys zing.

    Results r what we play for, 1) winning hands, then 2) winning tournaments and 3) making money.


    If he can fold the hand, he has a chance of doing 2 and 3, as no.1 is impossible barring misclicks, or disconnections.

    Its just a fact.
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    Fnarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

    it's not a debate you are just wrong and cant seem to understand averages or frequencies.


    it's incredible how someone who claims to be a great/big/perfect playing winner is still making one of the most amateur mistakes that can be made. I will stop now (ish). :p
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    Fnarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr it's not a debate you are just wrong and cant seem to understand averages or frequencies. it's incredible how someone who claims to be a great/big/perfect playing winner is still making one of the most amateur mistakes that can be made. I will stop now (ish). :p
    Posted by beaneh
    Im not Harvey.

    This is the second time you have referred to me saying something like this. And Im not sure where you get it from.

    I say my results are good, and prove I have a winning game at the levels I play, which happen to be nl30-50 (and am well up at nl100 too) - so I'm nowhere near perfect, in fact, Im probably playing at 30/40% of my potential - I believe I will be up playing nl500+ in a few years, nl100 by nxt summer.

    Im far from perfect, but this is what I aspire to be, make as close to 100% perfect decisions as I posibly can - same as everyone else I presume, again, it aint a secret and it's nothing new.

    How anyone in the world can be happy getting their money in on the flop drawing to a 2 outer, is beyond me!

    I have already stated in my first reply to the opening poster, that "I am not good enough to get away from this hand" - so I too would be in the lobby looking for a new game like u lot.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape? : I swear to god you must be on a windup, your stupidity is incredible. Of  1000 times that we raise pf and the flop comes paired, what proportion of those times will they have hit trips? Is there any chance they will stack off with hands other than Tx? are we beating those? if the answer to the last two questions are yes, then you need to work out what is the best in the long run, BECUASE THAT WAY YOU ARE MAKING THE BEST PLAY WITH THE INFORMATION YOU HAVE NOT WITH THE STUPID RESULTS ORIENTATED THINKING YOU EMPLOY. GAWD IM SO TILTED.
    Posted by beaneh
    You tilt me!! its called playing a completely different styles may mean that one wins more money then the other but doesn't make it the right option all the time! chirst stop going on like your God, ok you clearly playing higher then me and im guessing dohhhh so maybe your that much better then us but still when JJ gets up to your level i wouldn't back against him if you underestimate him that would be your downfall. Cant wait to see you too battle, not saying i reckon jj will win but if you underestimate and try to make a fancy play he will
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  • BrownnDogBrownnDog
    edited August 2010
    So level 1
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  • BrownnDogBrownnDog
    edited August 2010
    dohh where are you going to be 500nl reg then? Play on jokerstars or halftilt. You will crush them at 500nl. I think.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited August 2010

    lol give me some credit for table selection young gun.

    I don't play beaneh wherever I can help it - or good players in general.

    I know for a fact he has a winning game, so it wouldnt make sense to play him. Kool thing about 2 tabling is you can table select at any level u want pretty much, I'm rolled for nl100, but don't think Im ready to play that yet. Obv that means im rolled for nl50 - but the nl30 games r soooooo much easier, that it makes sense to play these - the amount of money I win there wud be the same as I'd hope to win at 50nl.....so it just makes sense.

    I aint here to show off, or earn respect and credibility from other players, its about making money to pay the bills. - Results orientated ftw :)

    Note on that tho - yesterday I found out why my laptop wudnt handle 3 tables, I was using the "power saver" option on the battery icon!!! WHAT A MUPPET!

    Anyway 3 run fine now so watch me goooooooooooooooo ! lol
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  • lynx3ffectlynx3ffect
    edited August 2010
    beanehs blatantly killed himself....
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  • BrownnDogBrownnDog
    edited August 2010
    Why do you do you bother posting here beaneh? Giving out all this great and free advice everyday for nothing and then being spoken to like that. 
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  • BrownnDogBrownnDog
    edited August 2010
    You have such a limited view of the online poker world. You live in a sky bubble. One day it will burst and you will have a shock.
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