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top pair flush draw..... call or fold?

donkeyplopdonkeyplop
edited August 2010 in The Poker Clinic
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
  Small blind   £0.02 £0.02 £3.77
  Big blind   £0.04 £0.06 £3.71
  Your hole cards
  • Q
  • 9
     
  Call   £0.04 £0.10 £2.32
  Call   £0.04 £0.14 £2.87
donkeyplop Call   £0.04 £0.18 £4.27

Call   £0.04 £0.22 £3.56
  Call   £0.02 £0.24 £3.75
  Check        
Flop
   
  • 10
  • 5
  • 8
     
  Check        
  Check        
  Bet   £0.24 £0.48 £2.08
  Call   £0.24 £0.72 £2.63
donkeyplop Call   £0.24 £0.96 £4.03
  Fold        
  Fold        
  Fold        
Turn
   
  • Q
     
  All-in   £2.08 £3.04 £0.00
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Comments

  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited August 2010

    Ooooooops the shove was 2x the pot...

    When this hand was taking place, I thought, easy call....

    lol...


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  • harvey23harvey23
    edited August 2010
    raise flop get it in, as played fold river.
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  • theneonstheneons
    edited August 2010
    ooooh, id be super tempted to call....
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  • donkeyplopdonkeyplop
    edited August 2010
    i wasnt so tempted to call......................

    ignore the fact its only £2 as the moneys is relevant to me.

    say you were playing nl100 and you were calling there for £50 what then???
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited August 2010
    Tough spot but you can miss it by not limping preflop.
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  • donkeyplopdonkeyplop
    edited August 2010
    thats very true bet you never ever limp then???
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited August 2010

    isn't it bad calling pre with q9 as can get you in trouble? although as dohhhhh said on another thread depends on how good your are at reading peoples hands

    with no reads here think i would all and make a note, someone could easily show Q10 here but if they do gl as you can still outdraw them on the river

    Personally although maybe a bit nitty im folding pre, but afterwards flop and turn after playing this is best you could have hoped for, although still possible someone is drawing to the nut flush here at these stakes you never know but would have to call

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  • theneonstheneons
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: top pair flush draw..... call or fold?:
    i wasnt so tempted to call...................... ignore the fact its only £2 as the moneys is relevant to me. say you were playing nl100 and you were calling there for £50 what then???
    Posted by donkeyplop
    if it were nl100 i wouldnt be limping with Q9h, of that you can be sure.
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: top pair flush draw..... call or fold?:
    thats very true bet you never ever limp then???
    Posted by donkeyplop
    Yh with small pairs that can pay big and are easy to get off when you miss. Double gapped suites cards aren't great imo as you might start calling off bets with top pair and end up folding when you realise your outkicked. I don't mind suited connectors too much but Q9s is a bridge too far for me.

    At 4NL you seriously don't need to play that many hands, just make sure you bet BIG BIG BIG on the ones you hit hard and you'll win BIG moniez.
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    what do you put your opponents on?


    what odds are you getting?
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  • donkeyplopdonkeyplop
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: top pair flush draw..... call or fold?:
    In Response to Re: top pair flush draw..... call or fold? : if it were nl100 i wouldnt be limping with Q9h, of that you can be sure.
    Posted by theneons
    no neither would i but its a different beast down here lol.

    any way everyones going off topic again...............

    call or fold..................
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  • ybyb
    edited August 2010
    You've got the straight draw as well. I cawl.

    You got so many outs and are ahead sometimes anyway.
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  • lynx3ffectlynx3ffect
    edited August 2010
    i take it the other guy in the hands folds?

    obv u might be ahead already but if u arent you might think any q, 9, h or j is good so thats prob 38% ish....obv not quite the odds to win but if u think Q is good some % of the time i think its a call....
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  • donkeyplopdonkeyplop
    edited August 2010
    no the other guy had gone all in...............................

    i thought this was a fold and dohhhhhh thought it was easy call..................


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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: top pair flush draw..... call or fold?:
    no the other guy had gone all in............................... i thought this was a fold and dohhhhhh thought it was easy call..................
    Posted by donkeyplop

    Why do you think it's a fold. What kind of hands do you think he has and what odds do you need to make the cawl?
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  • donkeyplopdonkeyplop
    edited August 2010
    i knew i was behind so im not sure calling 50bb to hit a heart is great odds imo??????

    also this guy had been very passive so had to have at least 2 pair here.........
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    Board: Th 8c 5h
    Dead:  

    equity win tie      pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 40.727%   40.73% 00.00%         10080        0.00   { Qh9h }
    Hand 1: 59.273%   59.27% 00.00%         14670        0.00   { KK+, TT, 88, 55, T8s, 85s }
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    Board: Th 8c 5h
    Dead:  

    equity win tie      pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 43.432%   43.40% 00.04%         15896       13.00   { Qh9h }
    Hand 1: 56.568%   56.53% 00.04%         20708       13.00   { KK+, TT, 88, 55, AhKh, AhJh, ATs, KTs, QTs, T8s, 85s, 7h6h }

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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited August 2010

    Looks like I owe u £2.08 plopper ! lol -

     u wud need 66% in the above data for it to be a call right?
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    Board: Th 8c 5h
    Dead:  

    equity win tie      pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 48.925%   48.80% 00.12%         26089       66.50   { Qh9h }
    Hand 1: 51.075%   50.95% 00.12%         27238       66.50   { TT+, 88, 55, AhKh, AhJh, ATs, KTs, QTs, Q8s, J9s, T8s, 97s, 85s, 7h6h }

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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    What % does hand no 0 need in the win column to make this call !? ie what odds are you getting
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  • ybyb
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: top pair flush draw..... call or fold?:
    Looks like I owe u £2.08 plopper ! lol -  u wud need 66% in the above data for it to be a call right?
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    How do we need 66%? Its 40.6% if my maths is correct...in fact you never need more than 50% equity to make a call correct not including rake.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited August 2010

    Theres £3 in the pot, with £2 to call?


    I forgot to add the bet in the first thing I just did £2 to win £1! loooooooooooool


    I might have saved myself £2....

    Is it a call then?

    £2 to win £3 then we need 2/5ths of 100 that is 40% as u say.......

    So have we got it?

    (I realllllly dont understand this stuff, and no way cud I work it out in 15 seconds, wudnt even get close, so the call is roughly right? i.e not terrible then?)

    They shud have spent more time teaching us to learn how to manipulate numbers in maths!!! Instead of floppin letters and SOHCAHTOHA!
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: top pair flush draw..... call or fold?:
    Theres £3 in the pot, with £2 to call? I forgot to add the bet in the first thing I just did £2 to win £1! loooooooooooool I might have saved myself £2.... Is it a call then? £2 to win £3 then we need 2/5ths of 100 that is 40% as u say....... So have we got it? (I realllllly dont understand this stuff, and no way cud I work it out in 15 seconds, wudnt even get close, so the call is roughly right? i.e not terrible then?) They shud have spent more time teaching us to learn how to manipulate numbers in maths!!! Instead of floppin letters and SOHCAHTOHA!
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH

    Yup. 

    The maths to work out 40% isn't all that hard. You then have to make guesses as to whether you have the required % or not.

    As you can see I started with a range of just value 2pr + hands, then added in some draws/tp hands, then some more hands including OPs and all draws really possible. What you need to do is pay attention to the effect adding different tranches of hand strengths has. When you add some and it changes it from a fold to a call you can see that that is the most important set of hands for you to be worrying about whether he plays this way. IF he does then stack off if he doesn't then it's probably close and just the other side of a fold assuming we've thought of everything else.


    The maths from pokerstove is the stuff you should be doing after the game, and in your own free time the 40% is a number you should always work out whilst you are playing and faced with a call.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited August 2010

    I reckon when I need 40% to make the call, if I'm between 30-50% (anything more It wud be so obviously a call that I wouldn't need to think) - I rekon I'd just call and hope it comes in. 

    How much %age wud u have to be off the required %age for you to say its an "auwful" call in a cash game?

    I really don't think I play enough hands for these marginal decisions to effect me in a negative way.....gonna end up round about even with em anyway.


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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    It's your money you choose the percentage lol
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  • dav1964dav1964
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: top pair flush draw..... call or fold?:
    i knew i was behind so im not sure calling 50bb to hit a heart is great odds imo?????? also this guy had been very passive so had to have at least 2 pair here.........
    Posted by donkeyplop
    You sure you aint got a gutshot as well?

    BTW i call
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  • donkeyplopdonkeyplop
    edited August 2010
    maybe im just too tight and didnt fancy the 1 in 4 chance of hitting the heart.

    super nit.........................................;)
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: top pair flush draw..... call or fold?:
    maybe im just too tight and didnt fancy the 1 in 4 chance of hitting the heart. super nit.........................................;)
    Posted by donkeyplop

    you can hit hearts, jacks, two pair outs.  it's not a big mistake either way depending on how your opponent plays.
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  • waynecwaynec
    edited August 2010
    Did the other guy in the hand fold? as he had to act before you.
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