Is he bluffing me?????????

waynec

I normally dont play a weak A out of the blind but i got the feeling xxx felt I would only defend it with a strong hand so made a stand.

My reads
yyy calls every raise in any position called with k2, j2, bluffs often. 
xxx raisng on button, like suited and none suited connectors, likes to limp.

The result is of no matter here I just want to know:
Would you call if so why?
Would you fold if so why?
I am looking to benchmark my decision as to how my peers would play it

YYY	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£21.23
waynecure	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£25.27
	Your hole cards	A 7
blackbeltb	Fold
MrsNit	Fold
ulsterfr30	Fold
xxx	Raise		£0.80	£1.10	£29.61
YYY	Call		£0.70	£1.80	£20.53
waynecure	Call		£0.60	£2.40	£24.67
Flop
		A K 3
YYY	Check
waynecure	Check
xxx	Check
Turn
		A
YYY	Bet		£1.20	£3.60	£19.33
waynecure	Call		£1.20	£4.80	£23.47
XXX	Call		£1.20	£6.00	£28.41
River
		4
yyy	Check
waynecure	Check
xxx	Bet		£5.20	£11.20	£23.21
yyy	Fold
waynecure	???

yb

If you feel the need to make a stand with a raggy ace oop raise with it, not call.
As played i'd call the river as we got trips.

pattyk

i definetely call the river

i would bet out on flop at least try guage where im at if you must check the flop at least reraise on turn.

you have played the hand so different from me i would not know where i was at at any stage in it .

whatever  you do you must call the river anyway

thats my tuppence worth


 i would have been more wary if he bet £3.20 on the river
but at the end of the day im still calling anyway

and twice on a sunday

philmenow

with the info you have,you know he could be playin pretty much any 2,so he cud be well ahead/well behind,..if i was playing a raggy A and i make trips,chances are im gonna call ..FWIW..

Talon

 Before answering the question of wether to fold or not, we need to think about why we played the hand in the first place.

  If we called just hoping to hit the flush then we should have folded the turn. If we called  expecting to be against a better Ace or middling pair then being 70/30 behind we were not getting good enough odds to outflop them.So the question on the river is the same question as preflop.We now need to try and range the hand with the betting.

 With the check on the flop and flat call on the turn we can rule out most big aces or KK. The river bet is strange after showing weakness on previous streets. Possible holdings are KQ KJ 44 A4 other weak ace or total bluff.Outside of these hands i can not see any holding that justifies the betting.

 As played i think you have to call the river but i would have much rather made the move on the turn rather than wait for the river to decide.

DOHHHHHHH

Raising the turn wud only make the river play/decision more difficult.

I don't mind missing out on a street of value to keep the pot under control and make my life easier.

I dunno what id do on the river haven't a clue what he's got.

Too hard Wayne make the next one easier

YOUNG_GUN

I do not have a scooby because how its been played could have anything, could have made flush or even missed the straight draw. or a total bluff. may have to call just on the off chance he has bluffed although i wouldn't be confident, how much easier would have been to just fold pre :P

lynx3ffect

your reasoning for defending the blind is totally flawed, you think he thinks you will defend with a strong hand so you pick a hand thats most likely dominated and plays awful oop....as said if you want to do this then raise pre, or play some rando suited hand that is disguised if your image is playing strong hands oop....

as played donking that flop into the initial raiser is fine as you want to charge weak fd and kings....as played its not the end of the world checking, and flatting turn is fine and you dont want a massive pot with such a vulnerable hand on a wet board. find it hard to put V on a hand he plays like this other than A4 or a flopped flush so have to call here, hard to give him credit for an A as he didnt c-bet - just seen you checked to him on the river so its definite call as you both show such weakness he can easily be doing this with worse

bet out river for value against Kx type hands

waynec

In Response to Re: Is he bluffing me?????????:

If you feel the need to make a stand with a raggy ace oop raise with it, not call. As played i'd call the river as we got trips.
Posted by yb

agreed!! I would normally raise here but this guys always flat called a 3bet, I did not want to build a big pot with A7 out of position and I still would not be any wiser to where I stood.

waynec

In Response to Re: Is he bluffing me?????????:

Raising the turn wud only make the river play/decision more difficult. I don't mind missing out on a street of value to keep the pot under control and make my life easier. I dunno what id do on the river haven't a clue what he's got. Too hard Wayne make the next one easier
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

You got it I was trying to limit the pot with a weak A on every street

waynec

In Response to Re: Is he bluffing me?????????:

your reasoning for defending the blind is totally flawed, you think he thinks you will defend with a strong hand so you pick a hand thats most likely dominated and plays awful oop....as said if you want to do this then raise pre, or play some rando suited hand that is disguised if your image is playing strong hands oop.... as played donking that flop into the initial raiser is fine as you want to charge weak fd and kings....as played its not the end of the world checking, and flatting turn is fine and you dont want a massive pot with such a vulnerable hand on a wet board. find it hard to put V on a hand he plays like this other than A4 or a flopped flush so have to call here, hard to give him credit for an A as he didnt c-bet - just seen you checked to him on the river so its definite call as you both show such weakness he can easily be doing this with worse bet out river for value against Kx type hands
Posted by lynx3ffect

Ok we are both showing weakness or is one trapping?
Im happy to think 3xA beat him if does not have the flush.
If I value bet the river, he can fold, call or come over the top. If he comes over the top do I fold which he could do as you have pointed out shown weakness and decide to rep the flush?
I want to limit the pot trips look dodgy here, be it right or wrong so do I:
Check/fold?
Check/call?
Check/raise?

waynec

In Response to Re: Is he bluffing me?????????:

 Before answering the question of wether to fold or not, we need to think about why we played the hand in the first place.   If we called just hoping to hit the flush then we should have folded the turn. If we called  expecting to be against a better Ace or middling pair then being 70/30 behind we were not getting good enough odds to outflop them.So the question on the river is the same question as preflop.We now need to try and range the hand with the betting.  With the check on the flop and flat call on the turn we can rule out most big aces or KK. The river bet is strange after showing weakness on previous streets. Possible holdings are KQ KJ 44 A4 other weak ace or total bluff.Outside of these hands i can not see any holding that justifies the betting.  As played i think you have to call the river but i would have much rather made the move on the turn rather than wait for the river to decide.
Posted by Talon

Hi Col
Agreed dont play rag A! Good ABC poker
Sometimes you have to play the random hand theory, mix it up, play it different and all that stuff as i said in post would normally not play this to a raise. We got to the river by good or bad play what I am asking is would you fold/call/raise in this spot and why?

cheers!

lynx3ffect

when i said both of u show weakness i meant you and yyyy on the river

you cant check/fold the river as you're hand is massively underrepped hence why i said he cud be betting Kx or busted flushes/weak pp as a bluff

i think either c/c or b/f is best line on the river. you check to essentially induce and call off any bet or bet out for value against Kx kinda hands

yb

The fact that you dont really know what to do on any street is the reason why you shouldn't play raggy aces oop as like lynx says you could be very easily dominated.

And fwiw if I happened to be a serial button raiser and someones idea of making a stand was to start calling in the blinds with junky hands I'd be very happy.

waynec

In Response to Re: Is he bluffing me?????????:

when i said both of u show weakness i meant you and yyyy on the river you cant check/fold the river as you're hand is massively underrepped hence why i said he cud be betting Kx or busted flushes/weak pp as a bluff i think either c/c or b/f is best line on the river. you check to essentially induce and call off any bet or bet out for value against Kx kinda hands
Posted by lynx3ffect

Ya I did understand you meant both of us showing weakness, and indicated that poorly in my response.

I think my mind set was the same as what you suggest, I had decided to c/c the river if the odds were good.

In the end I did call and he showed JT off.... phew!

waynec

In Response to Re: Is he bluffing me?????????:

The fact that you dont really know what to do on any street is the reason why you shouldn't play raggy aces oop as like lynx says you could be very easily dominated. And fwiw if I happened to be a serial button raiser and someones idea of making a stand was to start calling in the blinds with junky hands I'd be very happy.
Posted by yb

YB what you say is 100% correct and your comments appriciated however if you read through the posts on this thread I have agreed with this and even say it on my profile "dont play rag A!" I have mentioned in the thread that  "occasionally I play a random hand, play it totally different than I normally do" you have to mix it up sometimes as not to become predictable. The thread was not about how we got to the river Im well aware my play play was dangerous, I wanted to know having got to the river what you would do?

Cheers m8

lynx3ffect

point taken about ur interested in river play, which is fine imo

but we're trying to help in the long run....and get ur point u like to mix ur range etc but this isnt the best spot or the way to do it for the reasons given. regardless if u dont usually play a rag ace this way, it is still a rag ace and u are still oop and most of the time you will miss and have to c/f....u might only make this "random" play once in a blue moon but more often than not its going to be a losing play

waynec

In Response to Re: Is he bluffing me?????????:

point taken about ur interested in river play, which is fine imo but we're trying to help in the long run....and get ur point u like to mix ur range etc but this isnt the best spot or the way to do it for the reasons given. regardless if u dont usually play a rag ace this way, it is still a rag ace and u are still oop and most of the time you will miss and have to c/f....u might only make this "random" play once in a blue moon but more often than not its going to be a losing play
Posted by lynx3ffect

100% agree but!!! I like a gamble now and then being honest.