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Weird things from wsop! & Questions....

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  • ACAACA
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions.... : so 1 bracelet with a decent field size. 10 others with out? yet we only hear the number 11........ who has done better Hellmuth to win 10 bracelets against tiny fields or demidov who beat ~6k if I remember rightly and then finalled  WSOPE through a decent sized field?!
    Posted by beaneh


    HELLMUTH


    I thought u were making a serious case until I read this little gem from u previous post

    "And when you say amateurs you mean people who make a living playing online poker and play more tournaments in a week than hellmuth has ever played in a year against a higher standard of opponent than hellmuth can even dream of"

    now I know ur at the windup, nearly had me there, lol :)

    p.s when u say never done well in a big field, I reckon 45th in a field of over 6000 in 2008 is ok, ish

    Always a pleasure
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  • tikay1tikay1
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions.... : So we should have listened when he told dwan he was rubbish and that HU a pair of tens is a terrible hand? Hellmuth really doesn't have a clue, watch him play against Dwan on PAD or just watch him on ANY CASH GAME SHOW where he cant wait for the blinds to go up so instead just waits gets tilted and blows up. What a skill that is. And when you say amateurs you mean people who make a living playing online poker and play more tournaments in a week than hellmuth has ever played in a year against a higher standard of opponent than hellmuth can even dream of. The stupid thing with Hellmuth is that he acts like such a dousche at the table and yet honestly seems to come off quite well when he is away from the table/game. I've heard him speak with humility and brutal honesty about his game away from his table yet on his table he acts like a prize moron. Considering that it's a media/advertising image he is creating rather than a 'my playstyle at the tables image' it's very annoying. edit also using the bracelet number as a defining factor in skill, should we not use the all time money list? PH Is 10th on it  after tonnes of tournies, yet Mr Moneymaker is right up there with Jerry Yang after winning one singular tourny.
    Posted by beaneh
    If you think the art of a good debate is to mock, denegrate, & sprinkle in the odd "lol" to anyone who dares have an opposing view, fine, so be it.

    But please don't tell me what I mean to say.

    I said......

    "...Anyone can criticise anyone. But amateurs with no real track record over two decades (that'll be most of us)...."

    And that's exactly what I meant. How many players here on Sky Poker - to whom my comments were addressed - play the game for a living, & have played the game for 2 decades successsfully? (Expressed as a %).

    And here's a supplementary for you, which I hope you'll try to answer without mocking.

    How many players - again expressed as a % of the entire online poker playing market - make money playing online poker?

    I think you may find that "most of us" are amateurs, & most of us have to work for a living. Unlike Mr H. We'd also prefer to be full-time Pros. Like Mr H. So he must be doing something right, even if we don't like him.
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions.... : HELLMUTH I thought u were making a serious case until I read this little gem from u previous post "And when you say amateurs you mean people who make a living playing online poker and play more tournaments in a week than hellmuth has ever played in a year against a higher standard of opponent than hellmuth can even dream of" now I know ur at the windup, nearly had me there, lol :) p.s when u say never done well in a big field, I reckon 45th in a field of over 6000 in 2008 is ok, ish Always a pleasure
    Posted by ACA

    I was making a point to Tikay, he seemed to think the only person who would ever criticise PH is an amateur, many non amateurs have and will criticise hellmuths game that's unavoidable.
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  • tikay1tikay1
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions.... : I was making a point to Tikay, he seemed to think the only person who would ever criticise PH is an amateur, many non amateurs have and will criticise hellmuths game that's unavoidable.
    Posted by beaneh
    Wrong again, please stop mis-quoting me. I said no such thing.
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions.... : If you think the art of a good debate is to mock, denegrate, & sprinkle in the odd "lol" to anyone who dares have an opposing view, fine, so be it. But please don't tell me what I mean to say. I said...... "...Anyone can criticise anyone. But amateurs with no real track record over two decades (that'll be most of us)...." And that's exactly what I meant. How many players here on Sky Poker - to whom my comments were addressed - play the game for a living, & have played the game for 2 decades successsfully? (Expressed as a %). And here's a supplementary for you, which I hope you'll try to answer without mocking. How many players - again expressed as a % of the entire online poker playing market - make money playing online poker? I think you may find that "most of us" are amateurs, & most of us have to work for a living. Unlike Mr H. We'd also prefer to be full-time Pros. Like Mr H. So he must be doing something right, even if we don't like him.
    Posted by tikay1

    My lol was aimed at the number of runners in the competitions he has won. I fail to see where I have mocked or denegrated you. 

    only a small % of online players are winners just like only a small % of live players are actually winners. Tho ofc live people wont even find out if they are winners because they will never reach a decent sample size.



    Ok here's a question for you.


    If PH wasn't sponsored and had to make all his money from just playing poker and buying in with his own money, do you think he'd be much of a winner on the circuit nowadays forgetting that he's won enough to be rolled over the years?

    Similarly do you think he could ever have what it takes to win online tournies?!
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  • ACAACA
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions.... : I was making a point to Tikay, he seemed to think the only person who would ever criticise PH is an amateur, many non amateurs have and will criticise hellmuths game that's unavoidable.
    Posted by beaneh
    Hi Beaneh

    critics come and go, I'm sure PH cares not a jot, and as a retort 2 the synics, the 11 is wheeled out, Imagine I came onto your table and dissed your strategy and overall play, I'm quite sure you would come back at me, and if you happened to have 11 WSOP bracelets I'm quite sure you may remind me of that.

    Lets face he's at the top of the tree (WSOP wise) and with the exception of IVEY who has 8 is very unlikely to be overtaken anytime in the near future.

    ACA
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  • lozgolozgo
    edited August 2010
    OK Hellmuth is a bit of a knob but no-one can say he hasn't been succesful at the game! Everyone gets criticised at some point; some rightly some wrongly. hey, it's part of life.

    ps. just for a bit of a laugh.Was rereading the Lensman series of books by EE 'Doc' Smith and guess what? One of the major baddies just happens to be called Hellmuth..coincidence or what? OK the book was written in the 70's..maybe the author knew something?
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions.... : Hi Beaneh critics come and go, I'm sure PH cares not a jot, and as a retort 2 the synics, the 11 is wheeled out, Imagine I came onto your table and dissed your strategy and overall play, I'm quite sure you would come back at me, and if you happened to have 11 WSOP bracelets I'm quite sure you may remind me of that. Lets face he's at the top of the tree (WSOP wise) and with the exception of IVEY who has 8 is very unlikely to be overtaken anytime in the near future. ACA
    Posted by ACA


    Ya but do you see that arbitrary scales of money or bracelets may not be the best measure of skill?


    Jerry Yang is up there with the all time most skillful due to his 'amount of $ won in tournaments is he'?




    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    OK Hellmuth is a bit of a knob but no-one can say he hasn't been succesful at the game! Everyone gets criticised at some point; some rightly some wrongly. hey, it's part of life. ps. just for a bit of a laugh.Was rereading the Lensman series of books by EE 'Doc' Smith and guess what? One of the major baddies just happens to be called Hellmuth..coincidence or what? OK the book was written in the 70's..maybe the author knew something?
    Posted by lozgo

    Did his dad play or am I making that up?
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  • ACAACA
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions.... : My lol was aimed at the number of runners in the competitions he has won. I fail to see where I have mocked or denegrated you.  only a small % of online players are winners just like only a small % of live players are actually winners. Tho ofc live people wont even find out if they are winners because they will never reach a decent sample size. Ok here's a question for you. If PH wasn't sponsored and had to make all his money from just playing poker and buying in with his own money, do you think he'd be much of a winner on the circuit nowadays forgetting that he's won enough to be rolled over the years? Similarly do you think he could ever have what it takes to win online tournies?!
    Posted by beaneh

    In reply 2 ur questions, imo yes and yes

    In the last 6 months alone he has cashed 4 times in the WSOP and made 2 consecutive final tables in the WPT including the WPT World Championship at the Bellagio for a £25k buyin, these 6 cashes alone approx £400K, not bad for a guy with no game, no strategy and who cant live with the new young breed.

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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    That's prob more of an achievement than his first 5 bracelets! 
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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG
    edited August 2010
    a very interesting thread!

    When asked who is your favourite player, i tend to answer PH as he was the first player who caught my attention, when i first got into poker in 2007.

    He caught my attention due to his record in the WSOP, and also his books (yes, he has "written" books) taught me a style of mtt play which means, if i stick to it, i can't lose money long term. its impossible.

    Playing super tight ABC stuff is effective, and i don't care if it isn't fashionable...

    He may dress up like a plonker, and create a persona for the media that makes him look like a buffoon, but so what. He is a character, and he brings colour to the game. He may not be the best example of how to behave at the poker table, but he certainly isn't the worst...

    Playing no hands early in an mtt, and/or turning up late is fine imo, although i personally prefer to be there from the start to get reads etc. But his record of bracelets, who cares what the field sizes are, cannot be argued with... His record clearly deserves respect, as does his style of play, this does not necessarily have to mean that you have to respect the man himself...

    Long live PH imo, i hope he gets another few bracelets, and why not?!!
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  • donkeyplopdonkeyplop
    edited August 2010
    phil helmuth is great to watch and is the perfect guy for tv due to his outbursts.

    thats probably why you see luke full flush on tv alot as he talks such a great game....

    maybe both are not the greatest players in the world but are fun to watch on tv...
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  • batman4batman4
    edited August 2010
    hello mr dohhh--
    love this thread but--
    i have been watching and learning from some of you people--
    mr richard oreford is my favourite player--
    i now understand why he doesn't play  omaha anymore though--

      play the oreford way-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPKIrKZLXLg

    ps. PH is a legend--
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  • waynecwaynec
    edited August 2010
    Lets have on book on Doyle or Phil to win another WSOP title.... great thread dohhhhhhh m8
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited August 2010
    Why couldn't Dwan win a bracelet instead of coming 2nd :( he is so much better than hellmuth, he's a true great.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited August 2010

    Football teams have won matches with 10, and even 9 men.

    It doesn't mean they would chose to start with 10 men against 11next Saturday.

    Of course there is still a chance of winning turning up late, but it's less likely.


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  • waynecwaynec
    edited August 2010
    Phil says he is the best player in the world, listen to the interview after the hand ...... its lolastic!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkEjuZg3Bd0&NR=1
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  • The_Don90The_Don90
    edited August 2010
    Darvin Moon to win next years WOSP anyone?
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  • J-HartiganJ-Hartigan
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    a very interesting thread! When asked who is your favourite player, i tend to answer PH as he was the first player who caught my attention, when i first got into poker in 2007. He caught my attention due to his record in the WSOP, and also his books (yes, he has "written" books) taught me a style of mtt play which means, if i stick to it, i can't lose money long term. its impossible. Playing super tight ABC stuff is effective, and i don't care if it isn't fashionable... He may dress up like a plonker, and create a persona for the media that makes him look like a buffoon, but so what. He is a character, and he brings colour to the game. He may not be the best example of how to behave at the poker table, but he certainly isn't the worst... Playing no hands early in an mtt, and/or turning up late is fine imo, although i personally prefer to be there from the start to get reads etc. But his record of bracelets, who cares what the field sizes are, cannot be argued with... His record clearly deserves respect, as does his style of play, this does not necessarily have to mean that you have to respect the man himself... Long live PH imo, i hope he gets another few bracelets, and why not?!!
    Posted by GREGHOGG
    Nice post, Greg.  I agree with a lot of your points.

    I think it's very important that the game has characters and personalities; players with history and a record of achievement.

    However, I have one HUGE issue with Mr Hellmuth.

    It's nothing to do with his table antics (mostly staged, poorly, for the ESPN cameras), or his late arrival at the WSOP main event (staged, poorly, for the ESPN cameras).

    It's the fact that he's an ambassador for a brand that should have disappeared three years ago; a brand that does nothing but harm poker's reputation; a brand that promotes negative perceptions of the on-line gaming industry.

    That is all.

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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions.... : Nice post, Greg.  I agree with a lot of your points. I think it's very important that the game has characters and personalities; players with history and a record of achievement. However, I have one HUGE issue with Mr Hellmuth. It's nothing to do with his table antics (mostly staged, poorly, for the ESPN cameras), or his late arrival at the WSOP main event (staged, poorly, for the ESPN cameras). It's the fact that he's an ambassador for a brand that should have disappeared three years ago; a brand that does nothing but harm poker's reputation; a brand that promotes negative perceptions of the on-line gaming industry. That is all.
    Posted by J-Hartigan

    OH WOW YOU ARE MY KING FOR MENTIONING THIS



    I SALUTE YOU 


    he/they are a bunch of scumbags. How he can be a 'reputable and trusted' member of the poker community and then be their front man makes me want to spit on him. If he disowned it and seemed amazed and annoyed i'd be fine with him, he'd have gone up in my estimations as is what a disgrace. 
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  • batman4batman4
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions.... :    I think it's very important that the game has characters and personalities; players with history and a record of achievement. However, I have one HUGE issue with Mr Hellmuth. It's nothing to do with his table antics (mostly staged, poorly, for the ESPN cameras), or his late arrival at the WSOP main event (staged, poorly, for the ESPN cameras). It's the fact that he's an ambassador for a brand that should have disappeared three years ago; a brand that does nothing but harm poker's reputation; a brand that promotes negative perceptions of the on-line gaming industry. That is all.
    Posted by J-Hartigan
    of course your right--
    but then all online poker sites have ruined the reputation of the true game of poker--
    cheating is rife- collusion is rife--
    the rake and charges are a scandal--

    in real life at casinos or clubs they give you extras--
    and take only a fair percentage in table and game charges--

    unlike online poker sites--no matter how you do the math--
    the only winner with online poker are the sites themselves-

    you people can say what you like about phil hellmuth--
    what id say is--

    people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones--
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  • MAXALLYMAXALLY
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions.... : of course your right-- but then all online poker sites have ruined the reputation of the true game of poker-- cheating is rife- collusion is rife-- the rake and charges are a scandal-- in real life at casinos or clubs they give you extras-- and take only a fair percentage in table and game charges-- unlike online poker sites--no matter how you do the math-- the only winner with online poker are the sites themselves- you people can say what you like about phil hellmuth-- what id say is-- people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones--
    Posted by batman4
    Are you saying all online poker sites are robin us blind?? :)
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions.... : of course your right-- but then all online poker sites have ruined the reputation of the true game of poker-- cheating is rife- collusion is rife-- the rake and charges are a scandal-- in real life at casinos or clubs they give you extras-- and take only a fair percentage in table and game charges-- unlike online poker sites--no matter how you do the math-- the only winner with online poker are the sites themselves- you people can say what you like about phil hellmuth-- what id say is-- people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones--
    Posted by batman4


    I think you'll find that casinos have horrible rake structures normally and if the games weren't so soft they wouldn't be beatable. 

    Haven't you heard the saying the only winner in poker is the rake?!?
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    With regards to hellmuth interesting article with Negreanu, 





    he uses a swear word to describe annie duke at one point but it's starred out.
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  • SHANXTASHANXTA
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions.... : I think you'll find that casinos have horrible rake structures normally and if the games weren't so soft they wouldn't be beatable.  Haven't you heard the saying the only winner in poker is the rake?!?
    Posted by beaneh
    along wiv u, offshoot, gliterbabe, zing, lolufold etc etc
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions.... : along wiv u, offshoot, gliterbabe, zing, lolufold etc etc
    Posted by SHANXTA

    lol 80% right mate. nearly there ;-)
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions.... : If you think the art of a good debate is to mock, denegrate, & sprinkle in the odd "lol" to anyone who dares have an opposing view, fine, so be it. But please don't tell me what I mean to say. I said...... "...Anyone can criticise anyone. But amateurs with no real track record over two decades (that'll be most of us)...." And that's exactly what I meant. How many players here on Sky Poker - to whom my comments were addressed - play the game for a living, & have played the game for 2 decades successsfully? (Expressed as a %). And here's a supplementary for you, which I hope you'll try to answer without mocking. How many players - again expressed as a % of the entire online poker playing market - make money playing online poker? I think you may find that "most of us" are amateurs, & most of us have to work for a living. Unlike Mr H. We'd also prefer to be full-time Pros. Like Mr H. So he must be doing something right, even if we don't like him.
    Posted by tikay1
    There are some very good points here which tend to be overlooked:

    ''Most of us have no real track record'' - This is so true. Poker being a game of bravado lends itself to players over-estimating their true profitability. To remain at the top for 20 years shows true class. Making a profit for a year or hitting a 'biggy' once or twice bears no comparison.

    ''How many players online as a % make money at online poker?'' - Very very few in reality. Sustaining profitability over a period of years is extremely difficult. Some can do it. I know players who started online 8 years ago and still make (fluctuating) profits. Unfortunately, they are a small percentage of those that started all those years ago. Many good, and some exceptional, players have fallen by the wayside in that time. Very few have managed to remain profitable in tournaments and those who were making healthy profits in cash simply burnt out. Of the 30 or so very talented players from the original Tribeca days some still remain active and are profitable but as for making a living at online poker it's only feasible for a small few. Players like James (Flushy) Dempsey, Moorman can still hack it but scores have gone bust long ago.

    Poker is a great game, but just as in football, for the few that make it to the top, hundreds fail. In poker that number equates to millions who don't make it. My advice has always been to not give up the day job....... Unless you're as good as Mr Helmuth.
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  • batman4batman4
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions....:
    In Response to Re: Weird things from wsop! & Questions.... : Are you saying all online poker sites are robin us blind?? :)
    Posted by MAXALLY
    no max(robin)--not all--

    in the main -online-i only play freerolls--
    and on here they are spewing freerolls at the moment--
    (no rake or charges in these games)

    so no one is robin me--

    beaneh-- how can you say casinos charges are bad--

    in the casinos and clubs i play--
    the tournaments come with 1/2 price re-buys or double stack ad-dons--
    along with free beverages and free food in some cases--
    and cash games are charged by the hour-- so how can that be bad--

    + bonus is lovely waitress and as mr kendall said earlier--
    a massage if you want it--
    id say all that is worth going out for--
    no  contest in my eyes--
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  • batman4batman4
    edited August 2010

     mr elsadog-- why couldn't i have said just that--excellent post--

    but will anyone take notice--

    or even understand what you have written there--

    brilliant--
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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG
    edited August 2010
    WOOF!

    Top post Alan!
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