Newbie Question.

Ploppy33

Hi

I'm new to the site & fairly new to poker playing (watch it on tv lots though). My problem is finding the right level to play at. As the Lamborghini is presently in the garage (sadly not MY garage) I cant play in the high stakes stuff.
 
I find the problem with playing in the lower level stuff is that this isnt proper poker. The 2 main problems I seem to face are there seems to be a few good players (top 50 leagers) lurking at the low cash tables 2p/4p waiting to pick off newbies and more importantly any bet is trivialised by the amout bet - eg for instance you raise 5x big blind with KK only to be called by any 2 cards from at least 3 opponents just for the sheer hell of it - its very frustrating to lose to 63 offsuit!!

I have analysed my play over a lot of hands (over 1000 - took me ages - sad I know) & found that I have got my money in, in front 74% of the time - my winning percentage is 12.2% !!!

I have enjoyed the freerolls as this sort of silliness seems to only last for the first few levels until the idiots (calling all in bets with 63etc pre flop & the all-in every hand ones) get knocked out. I even finished 2nd in one of them. My concern though is that once these end at the end of August what then??

I do seem to experience a bit less of the above problems with the £3/£5 Sit & Go's but am looking for informed opinions as to what I should be looking to play in (my bankroll is approx £50 per month)

Thanks

simuk

Try raising to 10x with KK.... seriously...

SHANXTA

In Response to Newbie Question.:

Hi I'm new to the site & fairly new to poker playing (watch it on tv lots though). My problem is finding the right level to play at. As the Lamborghini is presently in the garage (sadly not MY garage) I cant play in the high stakes stuff.   I find the problem with playing in the lower level stuff is that this isnt proper poker. The 2 main problems I seem to face are there seems to be a few good players (top 50 leagers) lurking at the low cash tables 2p/4p waiting to pick off newbies and more importantly any bet is trivialised by the amout bet - eg for instance you raise 5x big blind with KK only to be called by any 2 cards from at least 3 opponents just for the sheer hell of it - its very frustrating to lose to 63 offsuit!! I have analysed my play over a lot of hands (over 1000 - took me ages - sad I know) & found that I have got my money in, in front 74% of the time - my winning percentage is 12.2% !!! I have enjoyed the freerolls as this sort of silliness seems to only last for the first few levels until the idiots (calling all in bets with 63etc pre flop & the all-in every hand ones) get knocked out. I even finished 2nd in one of them. My concern though is that once these end at the end of August what then?? I do seem to experience a bit less of the above problems with the £3/£5 Sit & Go's but am looking for informed opinions as to what I should be looking to play in (my bankroll is approx £50 per month) Thanks
Posted by Ploppy33

is this a monthly limit that you are willing to lose, or one that u wanna try and grind up to enable you to play at higher levels?

Ploppy33

In Response to Re: Newbie Question.:

In Response to Newbie Question. : is this a monthly limit that you are willing to lose, or one that u wanna try and grind up to enable you to play at higher levels?
Posted by SHANXTA

 
What I'm willing to lose (although I'm not sure I WANT to lose lol). So in reality I have a £50 budget if I blow it in a couple of days its back to the wife & kids for the month.

Obviously the above would be quite upsetting (probably more for the wife & kids though). So realistically looking to make £50 + winning last the month.

Thanks for your responses

unknown_username

In Response to Newbie Question.:

Hi I'm new to the site & fairly new to poker playing (watch it on tv lots though). My problem is finding the right level to play at. As the Lamborghini is presently in the garage (sadly not MY garage) I cant play in the high stakes stuff.   I find the problem with playing in the lower level stuff is that this isnt proper poker. The 2 main problems I seem to face are there seems to be a few good players (top 50 leagers) lurking at the low cash tables 2p/4p waiting to pick off newbies and more importantly any bet is trivialised by the amout bet - eg for instance you raise 5x big blind with KK only to be called by any 2 cards from at least 3 opponents just for the sheer hell of it - its very frustrating to lose to 63 offsuit!! I have analysed my play over a lot of hands (over 1000 - took me ages - sad I know) & found that I have got my money in, in front 74% of the time - my winning percentage is 12.2% !!! I have enjoyed the freerolls as this sort of silliness seems to only last for the first few levels until the idiots (calling all in bets with 63etc pre flop & the all-in every hand ones) get knocked out. I even finished 2nd in one of them. My concern though is that once these end at the end of August what then?? I do seem to experience a bit less of the above problems with the £3/£5 Sit & Go's but am looking for informed opinions as to what I should be looking to play in (my bankroll is approx £50 per month) Thanks
Posted by Ploppy33

That seems a bit odd, but 1000 hands is a small sample.

Low level cash tables will always give that problem. Freerolls are notoriously loose. I think the point here is that there is no quick route through the learning stages. If you have a small amount of free money to play with you have to work your way up the ladder from the lower levels. If you have a good amount of free money you can start higher but it will be expensive. Good players will take your money with 63 just as well as the clueless.

The players you see at the higher levels have been practising their skills for many, many hours. There is no shortcut method, I'm afraid you have to serve the apprenticeship. Read up on the game, practice, practice and practice ........ then practice some more. At least at the low levels it will be a relatively cheap learning curve.

Ploppy33

In Response to Re: Newbie Question.:

In Response to Newbie Question. : That seems a bit odd, but 1000 hands is a small sample. Low level cash tables will always give that problem. Freerolls are notoriously loose. I think the point here is that there is no quick route through the learning stages. If you have a small amount of free money to play with you have to work your way up the ladder from the lower levels. If you have a good amount of free money you can start higher but it will be expensive. Good players will take your money with 63 just as well as the clueless. The players you see at the higher levels have been practising their skills for many, many hours. There is no shortcut method, I'm afraid you have to serve the apprenticeship. Read up on the game, practice, practice and practice ........ then practice some more. At least at the low levels it will be a relatively cheap lurning curve.
Posted by elsadog

Thx for reply - any good reading suggestions as there seems to be a billion books - is there any notable stand outs?

chew07

I would give the deep stacks a try , low stakes £2-20 or £5-50 .If you do well games can last over 4 hours, yes you do still get all-in donks and chancers but with the slow blind levels you can sometimes avoid these idiots .
                 Give them a try as i say the stakes are low so you are not going to go broke overnight . Good luck in what ever games you play .

SHANXTA

In Response to Re: Newbie Question.:

In Response to Re: Newbie Question. :   What I'm willing to lose (although I'm not sure I WANT to lose lol). So in reality I have a £50 budget if I blow it in a couple of days its back to the wife & kids for the month. Obviously the above would be quite upsetting (probably more for the wife & kids though). So realistically looking to make £50 + winning last the month. Thanks for your responses
Posted by Ploppy33

then all i can really advise is to either play 2/4p cash, or £1/£2 double your money sit n gos

alot of people say they cant beat 2/4p coz of bad players making bad calls etc etc, however u just need to adjust ur game. remember who ur playin, bet BIG when u know they are drawing, bet BIG when u flop a monster they will pay u off! players like donkeyplop and thedon have beat this level comfortably.

the double your money route can be very boring, but its a good way of learning the basics without 2 much at risk.

there is a 3rd option, i think sky run £1 mtts every hour or so, some r freezeouts, some are rebuys, but for a small investment these can offer a gd return on your money and prob a bit more excitement too. there are also the £2 deepstacks, great value for money if u like a long well structured game.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: Newbie Question.:

In Response to Re: Newbie Question. : Thx for reply - any good reading suggestions as there seems to be a billion books - is there any notable stand outs?
Posted by Ploppy33

Harrington on Holdem - books 1 and 2

Harrington on Cash

Super System

....are all good to start off.

As mentioned some low level deepstack tournaments will (if you're careful) give you hours of practice against better or more experienced players, with the chance of a sustantial increase in your bankroll.

donkeyplop

if you want the practice nl4 is ok.

i make a steady profit just playing abc poker.

a good way to learn is to post some hands of yours in the poker clinic.

there are some great players who have given me great advice......

gl........

Tikay10

Hi Plopper.

Not much I can add to the above, some great advice there, but one thing caught my eye, & it's something that a lot of poker players struggle with initially. You said......

I have got my money in, in front 74% of the time - my winning percentage is 12.2%

Now, we have to be VERY careful with stats like that, because....
 
1) They can be misleading.

2) It may reflect upon how we are playing these hands.

Let's take an extreme example, just to make the point. I'm not suggesting this applies to you, but it does show how misleading stats are.

You hold 2-2. You limp in, & so does everyone else, so we go to the flop six handed.

The other holdings are.....

A-K suited

Q-J suited

T-9 suited

8-7 suited

6-5.

You have 2-2.

Your odds of winning are less than 14%. And yet you ARE ahead pre-flop.

But we don't play poker that way - we force the issue, we show aggression, & alter the odds. We can alter our odds by

1) Raising to thin the field.

2) Bluffing

3) Betting to protect our hand.

4) Using our judgement to determine if we should play this hand, in this position. (Position can alter our odds by up to 30%, too. Hands that are gimmies on the Button, are almost impossible to play UTG).

We could, in theory, reduce the field to one opponent - the one with A-K std. And now our chances of winning - even assuming we cannot push the other guy off by betting the flop, turn, & river - have risen from 14% to a nadge under 50%.

And therein lies the skill in poker. Making things happen, by skill, rather than letting things happen, & hoping our hand holds.

Best poker book with which to learn? For me, none.

Try visiting the "Poker Clinic" here, reading through the threads, even Post a few hands, asking "guys, where did I go wrong here?". Nobody will laugh or mock, & your learning graph will accelerate enormously.

Good Luck, & any more questions, just ask. There are loads of good players here, ready to help, as well as complete newbies like Dylan, & Daiboot.

walesboy

2p/4p can be a bit loose at times! understatement of the year, but if you are consistent in your approach you can be profitable. It can take a little while to get the hang of it (if you are me) but once you do.....
You still get the "bad beats" but that's poker.
If you can do it, you could multi-table to build up your roll quicker. I don't as I've got to consistently win on one for a while first.
The deepstacks are also a good way to learn and a welcome relief to the fun and games of the cash.

The poker clinic and the guys who post and comment are also a very good source for improving your game or for reminding you that even if you do everything right you can still lose.

Good luck 

SHANXTA

In Response to Re: Newbie Question.:

2p/4p can be a bit loose at times! understatement of the year, but if you are consistent in your approach you can be profitable. It can take a little while to get the hang of it (if you are me) but once you do..... You still get the "bad beats" but that's poker. If you can do it, you could multi-table to build up your roll quicker. I don't as I've got to consistently win on one for a while first. The deepstacks are also a good way to learn and a welcome relief to the fun and games of the cash. The poker clinic and the guys who post and comment are also a very good source for improving your game or for reminding you that even if you do everything right you can still lose. Good luck 
Posted by walesboy

use this

there are several good players in there ranging from 4nl regs, to 100nl regs, giving free advice, make d most!

candi

In Response to Re: Newbie Question.:

In Response to Re: Newbie Question. :   What I'm willing to lose (although I'm not sure I WANT to lose lol). So in reality I have a £50 budget if I blow it in a couple of days its back to the wife & kids for the month. Obviously the above would be quite upsetting (probably more for the wife & kids though). So realistically looking to make £50 + winning last the month. Thanks for your responses
Posted by Ploppy33

You will go a long way with your name `ploppy`. A lonnnnng way! ( see jaegerplop, Donkeyplop and all the other ploppers )

Welcome to the forum ploppy33 and you will get sound advice from the forum peeps x

cookie83

In Response to Re: Newbie Question.:

Hi Plopper. Not much I can add to the above, some great advice there, but one thing caught my eye, & it's something that a lot of poker players struggle with initially. You said...... I have got my money in, in front 74% of the time - my winning percentage is 12.2% Now, we have to be VERY careful with stats like that, because....   1) They can be misleading. 2) It may reflect upon how we are playing these hands. Let's take an extreme example, just to make the point. I'm not suggesting this applies to you, but it does show how misleading stats are. You hold 2-2. You limp in, & so does everyone else, so we go to the flop six handed. The other holdings are..... A-K suited Q-J suited T-9 suited 8-7 suited 6-5. You have 2-2. Your odds of winning are less than 14%. And yet you ARE ahead pre-flop. But we don't play poker that way - we force the issue, we show aggression, & alter the odds. We can alter our odds by 1) Raising to thin the field. 2) Bluffing 3) Betting to protect our hand. 4) Using our judgement to determine if we should play this hand, in this position. (Position can alter our odds by up to 30%, too. Hands that are gimmies on the Button, are almost impossible to play UTG). We could, in theory, reduce the field to one opponent - the one with A-K std. And now our chances of winning - even assuming we cannot push the other guy off by betting the flop, turn, & river - have risen from 14% to a nadge under 50%. And therein lies the skill in poker. Making things happen, by skill, rather than letting things happen, & hoping our hand holds. Best poker book with which to learn? For me, none. Try visiting the "Poker Clinic" here, reading through the threads, even Post a few hands, asking "guys, where did I go wrong here?". Nobody will laugh or mock, & your learning graph will accelerate enormously. Good Luck, & any more questions, just ask. There are loads of good players here, ready to help, as well as complete newbies like Dylan, & Daiboot.
Posted by Tikay10

I'd like to have seen how long your post would have been if you had a lot to add Tikay ;-)

efgloser

I suggest you save your £50 each month, and at the end of the year you`ll be £600 up.

efgloser

In Response to Re: Newbie Question.:

Hi Plopper. Not much I can add to the above, some great advice there, but one thing caught my eye, & it's something that a lot of poker players struggle with initially. You said...... I have got my money in, in front 74% of the time - my winning percentage is 12.2% Now, we have to be VERY careful with stats like that, because....   1) They can be misleading. 2) It may reflect upon how we are playing these hands. Let's take an extreme example, just to make the point. I'm not suggesting this applies to you, but it does show how misleading stats are. You hold 2-2. You limp in, & so does everyone else, so we go to the flop six handed. The other holdings are..... A-K suited Q-J suited T-9 suited 8-7 suited 6-5. You have 2-2. Your odds of winning are less than 14%. And yet you ARE ahead pre-flop. But we don't play poker that way - we force the issue, we show aggression, & alter the odds. We can alter our odds by 1) Raising to thin the field. 2) Bluffing 3) Betting to protect our hand. 4) Using our judgement to determine if we should play this hand, in this position. (Position can alter our odds by up to 30%, too. Hands that are gimmies on the Button, are almost impossible to play UTG). We could, in theory, reduce the field to one opponent - the one with A-K std. And now our chances of winning - even assuming we cannot push the other guy off by betting the flop, turn, & river - have risen from 14% to a nadge under 50%. And therein lies the skill in poker. Making things happen, by skill, rather than letting things happen, & hoping our hand holds. Best poker book with which to learn? For me, none. Try visiting the "Poker Clinic" here, reading through the threads, even Post a few hands, asking "guys, where did I go wrong here?". Nobody will laugh or mock, & your learning graph will accelerate enormously. Good Luck, & any more questions, just ask. There are loads of good players here, ready to help, as well as complete newbies like Dylan, & Daiboot.
Posted by Tikay10

Cool.

waynec

99% of people when they take up poker lose in the early days whilst learning, the other 1% go on to win WSOP braclets, you will just lose your BR faster on the higher stakes table. Once you can hold your own at 4nl then look higher at 10nl two bad beats or shall we say outdraws will lose you most of your £50 budget in just 2 hands.

Ploppy33

In Response to Re: Newbie Question.:

99% of people when they take up poker lose in the early days whilst learning, the other 1% go on to win WSOP braclets, you will just lose your BR faster on the higher stakes table. Once you can hold your own at 4nl then look higher at 10nl two bad beats or shall we say outdraws will lose you most of your £50 budget in just 2 hands.
Posted by waynecure

This is the crux of the problem as I'm not sure its possible to master the low level tables.

The main reason being whilst listening/watching the experts comment like you can ignore the 4 on the turn as an irrelevant card doesnt hold true at this level because pairing the board has given the idiot who has been calling your aces with K4 offsuit the trips. This leads to you being totally unaware where u are in the hand - as it seems that most peoples ranges at this level are any 2 cards - I'm sure they would still call if they only had 1!!.

Also playing styles seem at odds to popular advise - Dont play 2 many hands - I end up watching a freeforall - will the 63  hold up against the 45?? - Hardly fun or educational.

Appreciate all the comments guys

beaneh

In Response to Re: Newbie Question.:

In Response to Re: Newbie Question. : This is the crux of the problem as I'm not sure its possible to master the low level tables. The main reason being whilst listening/watching the experts comment like you can ignore the 4 on the turn as an irrelevant card doesnt hold true at this level because pairing the board has given the idiot who has been calling your aces with K4 offsuit the trips. This leads to you being totally unaware where u are in the hand - as it seems that most peoples ranges at this level are any 2 cards - I'm sure they would still call if they only had 1!!. Also playing styles seem at odds to popular advise - Dont play 2 many hands - I end up watching a freeforall - will the 63  hold up against the 45?? - Hardly fun or educational. Appreciate all the comments guys
Posted by Ploppy33

By far and away just read 

The Theory of Poker by Sklansky

+

Harrington on Hold EM 1,2,3.

Start at NL4 with 4 quid a go, and try the 2.2 deepstack tournies.

You're misleading yourself if you think it's impossible to win 'because people call too much'. This is a good thing, to beat someone playing that sort of strategy you play tight and bet your medium-good hands strongly for value taking into account every step of the way the wide range of holdings your oppo can have.

You can learn tonnes from books, but you'll also learn tonnes from just playing and losing (you learn less when you win because you don't think about what you've done because you won, so it must have been good right?). As with most things doing your homework really pays off so look back at how you play and keep trying to improve (the game can sometimes, sometimes be fun!).

donkeyplop

In Response to Re: Newbie Question.:

99% of people when they take up poker lose in the early days whilst learning, the other 1% go on to win WSOP braclets, you will just lose your BR faster on the higher stakes table. Once you can hold your own at 4nl then look higher at 10nl two bad beats or shall we say outdraws will lose you most of your £50 budget in just 2 hands.
Posted by waynecure

well ive only been playing since december and ive been winning while learning!!!

i think im going to book my seat for vegas next year

bandini

In Response to Re: Newbie Question.:

In Response to Re: Newbie Question. : Thx for reply - any good reading suggestions as there seems to be a billion books - is there any notable stand outs?
Posted by Ploppy33

First of all, welcome to Sky mate.

You'll get better advice above than I can give regarding where to start out. I'm pretty much a newbie like you.

But books : They've already been mentioned but : Harrington's, Harrington's, Harrington's. On-line play is probably (definitely) far more aggressive than when he wrote them. And Sky's 6-headed compared to the 9 headed tables he generally talks about. But Harrington's books teach you how to think about poker. They're the greatest ever written about poker, without any shadow of a doubt. I read, re-read and re-read the problems he sets out at the end of each chapter and they just get you totally into poker thinking mode. You'll need to adapt that mode of thought to the modern game but they have to be the starting point of anyone that wants to take the game seriously.

Good luck mate.

Ploppy33

In Response to Re: Newbie Question.:

In Response to Re: Newbie Question. : By far and away just read  The Theory of Poker by Sklansky + Harrington on Hold EM 1,2,3. Start at NL4 with 4 quid a go, and try the 2.2 deepstack tournies. You're misleading yourself if you think it's impossible to win 'because people call too much'. This is a good thing, to beat someone playing that sort of strategy you play tight and bet your medium-good hands strongly for value taking into account every step of the way the wide range of holdings your oppo can have. You can learn tonnes from books, but you'll also learn tonnes from just playing and losing (you learn less when you win because you don't think about what you've done because you won, so it must have been good right?). As with most things doing your homework really pays off so look back at how you play and keep trying to improve (the game can sometimes, sometimes be fun!).
Posted by beaneh

Problem I have found with this strategy is that you wake up with a good hand after sitting and watching all the antics for the last 20 mins - losing your blinds periodically - bet big and everyone thinks hmm heres ploppy (wasnt aware he was still here?) must have a monster - lets all fold - yippee win 8 - 20p go back to sleep.

By my reconing I will need premium hands a lot more than is statistically likely to make this work. I therefore find myself being drawn into the stupidity myself, ie. getting involved in more & more marginal hands (ESPECIALLY in position) Is this good for my game? What is the reasonable range for getting involved in position, say for instance on the button? suited connectors? J10? A-rag?

Ploppy33

Would appreciate comments please

SHANXTA

In Response to Re: Newbie Question.:

In Response to Re: Newbie Question. : Problem I have found with this strategy is that you wake up with a good hand after sitting and watching all the antics for the last 20 mins - losing your blinds periodically - bet big and everyone thinks hmm heres ploppy (wasnt aware he was still here?) must have a monster - lets all fold - yippee win 8 - 20p go back to sleep. By my reconing I will need premium hands a lot more than is statistically likely to make this work. I therefore find myself being drawn into the stupidity myself, ie. getting involved in more & more marginal hands (ESPECIALLY in position) Is this good for my game? What is the reasonable range for getting involved in position, say for instance on the button? suited connectors? J10? A-rag?
Posted by Ploppy33

uv noticed the main thing which is POSITION.

id prob avoid raggy aces, it cud put u in difficult spots u just dnt need to get in2 at this level.

just dnt try and do anything fancy, the vast majority of players at this level are not sitting there and thinkin 'oh ploppy hasnt raised 4 half hr, he must have a hand now' its more like, 'oooohhhhh, i have a Q and a 6, and they are d same suit and everything'

raise big, alot of players who are willing to pay 16p 2c a flop, will also pay ~30p, so make them!

DOHHHHHHH

Plopy u can't have it both ways.

TOP U play every hand, and get called by every player everytime u raise.

     ------- In-between ------

MIDDLE  U play a reasonable range of hands, and you get called in lots of spots.

     ------- In-between -----

BOTTOM U play a very strict range, and they run a mile as soon as you put money in the pot.

They are like the 2 ends, and the middle of the spectrum. It isn't set in stone, u dont have to select ur hands and have a set gameplan prior to sitting down.

The whole idea of poker is to be constantly adapting to your opponents and table dynamics. Whats happening, who's calling to see every flop, who is playing tight etc etc etc. You can then take these things into account, thinking about your position at the table in relation to each player.

For example if you are in an un-raised pot, and you are on the button with Ace 2 of spades.

If the player in the big blind is calling every single raise, no matter how much you make it, you want to raise the pot up, to play a pot against him in position with an above average starting hand. (if he is playing every single 2 card combo - u are ahead of him more times than not here right?~)

Same scenario, and hand, but the player in the big blind re-raises every single hand. You would want to fold your ace 2, and wait for a chance when you are happy to play a big pot against him (AQs+ JJ+)

If the player in the big blind is folding every single time u raise his blind, you will be raising the button in an un-opened pot 100% of the time, no matter what u are holding.

Your hand selection is really important, you have to learn to do the right thing, at the right time, having assessed correctly the players at your table. Don't get stuck in a rut, of having a set range of hands to play, and sticking to them no matter what.

Be flexible.

batman4

   +1 to all of that dohhhhhhhh--

also for my two pennyworth--
and it took me  along time to learn but--

"I don't play poker to 'outplay' anyone"--
I just want good cards--

at the table for me, i leave all the ego stuff outside and focus quietly on the tournament--

ps-- i don't play much cash games--

ALIVEHAT60

In Response to Newbie Question.:

 It seems that you think you know it all???,and why not,after all you're a veteran of a 1000 hands,and a BR of £50 a month. With all that going for you,you can call people 'idiots' how dare someone beat your Aces,a catastrophe of Tsunami proportions, lol.                          Kind regards

Ploppy33

In Response to Re: Newbie Question.:

In Response to Newbie Question. :  It seems that you think you know it all???,and why not,after all you're a veteran of a 1000 hands,and a BR of £50 a month. With all that going for you,you can call people 'idiots' how dare someone beat your Aces,a catastrophe of Tsunami proportions, lol.                          Kind regards
Posted by ALIVEHAT60

Read the whole post!! - the above was an example that seems to happen over & over again not a specific - just an illustration of a point fof view.

You will also notice (even from the heading) I'm hardly referring to myself as a "know it all" - the complete opposite in fact! Hence the word Newbie!

My whole point is that I want to try to learn to play properly or at least not erratically as I am doing now. I am finding this difficult as stated above because it is very difficult to assess a situation where I am in a (another illustration to make a point) 5 handed pot with lets say AA against 5 oppos each of which can hold any 2 cards.

My point is that when u watch say the TV etc this does not happen as most players will be playing within a realistic range of hands not any 2 - I understand that at any time & at any level there is always a variance and that quite possible my AA will lose to 63 but should I adjust my play (such as it is) to account for this 100% of the time.

Thx a lot Dohhhhhhh for your response very informative.

ficino

In Response to Re: Newbie Question.:

In Response to Re: Newbie Question. : Cool.
Posted by efgloser

yup.