What do I do on this flop??

silentbob

I've been sat at this table for around 2 hours or so & had planned this to be my last hand when I get a monster.

The table itself had been pretty loose so I wanted to try & get HU or 3 way at most.

When the re-raise comes in there's no way I'm just flatting here but I also know that if he does come over the top here then I'm highly likely up against aces. Player x has been sat down for the best part of 45 mins or so & I hadn't really noticed him getting too lary although I was multi tabling & I probably missed some of his hands.

One hand I did notice when he joined the table early on was that he slow played aces from UTG (he managed to get lucky in a multi way pot that time).

So when the flop comes down like this what's the best thing to do? I don't like the ace particularly given his call pre but surely you don't ever c/f here?

Also, given the size of the pot & relative stack sizes if I make any sort of meaningful bet & he calls or shoves then I'm committed anyway, right?

So what's my best option here cos on occasions I find myself in spots like this I'm really not sure what to do for the best.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
	Small blind		£0.04	£0.04	£9.31
	Big blind		£0.08	£0.12	£1.83
	Your hole cards	K K
silentbob	Raise		£0.32	£0.44	£19.36
	Fold
X	Raise		£0.56	£1.00	£8.17
	Fold
	Fold
	Fold
silentbob	Raise		£1.68	£2.68	£17.68
X	Call		£1.44	£4.12	£6.73
Flop
		9 A 9
silentbob	?????

DOHHHHHHH

Ahhhhhhhhhhh had this so many times tonight.

Bet then Fold to his raise.

Seems pointless Im just gonna open fold nxt time.

LOL_RAISE

i c.f if im not on monkey tilt

unknown_username

bet to find out where u are if he raises fold

Batkin88

Loads of ways to play this i would bet first a small amount and then flat call a re raise! if it comes
I would then finish on the turn bet out again see what he does if he re raises there he has the ace! So many players myself included will re raise you betting out with nothing because i would rep the ace and hope you have less! Whereas i wouldnt rep it twice ...
Also players dont like calling paired boards so unless he has that 9 which is unlikely by his reraise PF it isnt likely he will call you. (Also means if u do what i said and bet on the turn u cud rep the 9's and he will fold his ace) Dont just put him on aces from one PF re-raise unless you have good notes on player to do so

Or just check it through and hope for the king

silentbob

So if you bet out what amount are you betting? There's just over £4 in the middle & he's got nearly £7 behind. Is there an optimal amount in this situation that's big enough to get an answer without committing myself?

Obviously his range here does contain an ace but he can also be 3 betting PF with a lot of smaller pairs than mine as well as some kind of weird bluffy type hands like KQ, KJ (I know this is less likely but some really weird things happen at this level!).

yb

I think against most players c/f is best, as most people would check behind with TT-KK. Obviously if he's 3betting / calling 4bets with hands like KQ/KJ its a bit different.

Batkin b/cing the flop then b/fing turn on this board is pretty awful imo. As is raising the flop with air on ace high boards in 4 bet pots most of the time.

Batkin88

In response to yb, at this level without being rude to the players at this level its is abc poker. They will re-raise with pocket 7's PF i have seen players do it with 3 5 off. I understand what you mean but how can you just put him on an ace because of one PF raise. Kings are beating everything but an ace or a 9! You can discount the 9's because of the re raise so kings are being beaten by an ace and an ace only. He could easily have queens jacks 10's!
Thats my opinion anyway

SHANXTA

In Response to Re: What do I do on this flop??:

Loads of ways to play this i would bet first a small amount and then flat call a re raise! if it comes I would then finish on the turn bet out again see what he does if he re raises there he has the ace! So many players myself included will re raise you betting out with nothing because i would rep the ace and hope you have less! Whereas i wouldnt rep it twice ... Also players dont like calling paired boards so unless he has that 9 which is unlikely by his reraise PF it isnt likely he will call you. (Also means if u do what i said and bet on the turn u cud rep the 9's and he will fold his ace) Dont just put him on aces from one PF re-raise unless you have good notes on player to do so Or just check it through and hope for the king
Posted by Batkin88

this is impossible to do with those stack sizes

yb

In Response to Re: What do I do on this flop??:

In response to yb, at this level without being rude to the players at this level its is abc poker. They will re-raise with pocket 7's PF i have seen players do it with 3 5 off. I understand what you mean but how can you just put him on an ace because of one PF raise. Kings are beating everything but an ace or a 9! You can discount the 9's because of the re raise so kings are being beaten by an ace and an ace only. He could easily have queens jacks 10's! Thats my opinion anyway
Posted by Batkin88

What ratio of Ax hands are there to other hands in his 3bet/cing range? Of these different hands what % will he bet when checked to on an ace high flop? The answers are obviously villain dependent but they should show what line is best.

Edit: If you plan on leading the flop with these stack sizes you also need to consider what hands in his pf range he will be continuing with (ie would he call/shove with worse?)

yb

Bob you say that if he comes over the top preflop you're putting him on aces, does this mean we're folding to a 5bet?

silentbob

In Response to Re: What do I do on this flop??:

I think against most players c/f is best, as most people would check behind with TT-KK. Obviously if he's 3betting / calling 4bets with hands like KQ/KJ its a bit different. Batkin b/cing the flop then b/fing turn on this board is pretty awful imo. As is raising the flop with air on ace high boards in 4 bet pots most of the time.
Posted by yb

Cheers yb

So do you think that maybe c/f should be the more "default" line here (I know there's really no such thing as default cos it's very situation dependant but you know what I mean?)

Does c/f here not look super weak?

LOL_RAISE

batkin how many people to you think will bet QQ,JJ,TT on this flop. let alone how many people would raise the flop with QQ,JJ,TT

his range for minraise and flatting a 4bet is going to be like AQ+ JJ+ (possibly plus some air)

how many of these hands are betting the flop? the ones that beat us.

if you want to bet to get him to fold the air that he wont bluff us off the pot with (assuming he does have air in his range) then you should be betting about 1/4 pot.

yb

In Response to Re: What do I do on this flop??:

In Response to Re: What do I do on this flop?? : Cheers yb So do you think that maybe c/f should be the more "default" line here (I know there's really no such thing as default cos it's very situation dependant but you know what I mean?) Does c/f here not look super weak?
Posted by silentbob

Always c/fing these type of boards is exploitable, especially against better players, but then you can adjust your play, like if you're playing against a really aggro player who always bets when checked to you can c/c instead for example.

I just think that with these stack sizes he's not calling/shoving with worse a lot, and as he's passive he probably won't be betting without the ace so we can be fairly confident we're behind if he does bet.

Batkin88

In Response to Re: What do I do on this flop??:

batkin how many people to you think will bet QQ,JJ,TT on this flop. let alone how many people would raise the flop with QQ,JJ,TT his range for minraise and flatting a 4bet is going to be like AQ+ JJ+ (possibly plus some air) how many of these hands are betting the flop? the ones that beat us. if you want to bet to get him to fold the air that he wont bluff us off the pot with (assuming he does have air in his range) then you should be betting about 1/4 pot.
Posted by LOL_RAISE

Y has everyone put him on aces?? Think about the situation your in if you check and he bets?? Y would he not bet queens if you have just checked to him??? He wouldnt put you on aces!! Why would he not bet q j if you just checked to him?? You check that flop he is betting regardless because of the pre flop raise and then your folding! If you lead out it pressures him and then at least by his next action you know where you are. Why have you automatically put yourself behind in this situation? Fair enough he may well have the ace but the only way of findig out is if you bet if he gets the chance to bet first you will just accept he has aces and fold a hand what could of made you a big pot! I gave my opinion and im a winning poker player and thats how i would play it! I also said at the start of my post you can play it many different ways which you can and yb has posted a different way of playing it. I was giving my opinion on how i would play it, also one more point to make if you lead out on this flop where no one is pot commited and the pot is already a decent size who is to say the ace hasnt scared him?????

SHANXTA

In Response to Re: What do I do on this flop??:

In Response to Re: What do I do on this flop?? : Y has everyone put him on aces?? Think about the situation your in if you check and he bets?? Y would he not bet queens if you have just checked to him??? He wouldnt put you on aces!! Why would he not bet q j if you just checked to him?? You check that flop he is betting regardless because of the pre flop raise and then your folding! If you lead out it pressures him and then at least by his next action you know where you are. Why have you automatically put yourself behind in this situation? Fair enough he may well have the ace but the only way of findig out is if you bet if he gets the chance to bet first you will just accept he has aces and fold a hand what could of made you a big pot! I gave my opinion and im a winning poker player and thats how i would play it! I also said at the start of my post you can play it many different ways which you can and yb has posted a different way of playing it. I was giving my opinion on how i would play it, also one more point to make if you lead out on this flop where no one is pot commited and the pot is already a decent size who is to say the ace hasnt scared him?????
Posted by Batkin88

Have u looked at the stack sizes?

Do u think he flats QJ pre?

Have u thought about his range?

Batkin88

Yes to the first and third one!
He may not flat pre with qj but he would with any pocket pair KQ or sometimes players have a fav hand they play regardless J 10 maybe!
So your telling me that just because an ace came down your giving a player a chance to steal this pot??
If i was the villan and its checked to me and i had pocket 5's in hand i would bet 3/4 pot here and then he folds. He is losing to 5 cards in the pack which means he is winning to any of the other 47!

Also if he had aces would he flat pre?? no he would shove all in.
If he had AK would he raise to an early raise maybe just maybe. A Q  A J no he wouldnt.
However a raise early on and your holding pocket q's yes you would re raise and then flat.

Like i said he may have the ace but you dont know yet and you cant fold a hand that good without figuring out if he has the ace. I would rather bet a and find out what he has personally. If he hasnt got the ace your getting £4.12 back on top. It hasnt even got to be half the pot you could bet a £1.68 here and find out what he has to whether he flat calls raises or folds.

SHANXTA

In Response to Re: What do I do on this flop??:

Yes to the first and third one! He may not flat pre with qj but he would with any pocket pair KQ or sometimes players have a fav hand they play regardless J 10 maybe! So your telling me that just because an ace came down your giving a player a chance to steal this pot?? If i was the villan and its checked to me and i had pocket 5's in hand i would bet 3/4 pot here and then he folds. He is losing to 5 cards in the pack which means he is winning to any of the other 47! Also if he had aces would he flat pre?? no he would shove all in. If he had AK would he raise to an early raise maybe just maybe. A Q  A J no he wouldnt. However a raise early on and your holding pocket q's yes you would re raise and then flat. Like i said he may have the ace but you dont know yet and you cant fold a hand that good without figuring out if he has the ace. I would rather bet a and find out what he has personally. If he hasnt got the ace your getting £4.12 back on top. It hasnt even got to be half the pot you could bet a £1.68 here and find out what he has to whether he flat calls raises or folds.
Posted by Batkin88

wow, i'm really not sure you should include KQ or JT in their range just because it maybe their favourite hand.

u really think 55 is in villains range after this action?

ofc people 3bet AK pre, there is a high possibility they 3bet AQ/AJ too, although whether they falt the 4bet is questionable.

so you think it's best to put out a really weak lead, and fold to a push? ok

Batkin88

i think u should sit at a table next to me!! : )

Like i have sair 3 times there are diff ways of playing it but i would rather take control than let the villan have it

SHANXTA

In Response to Re: What do I do on this flop??:

i think u should sit at a table next to me!! : ) Like i have sair 3 times there are diff ways of playing it but i would rather take control than let the villan have it
Posted by Batkin88

lol

this might be the perfect example of 'a fish on a heater'

silentbob

In Response to Re: What do I do on this flop??:

Bob you say that if he comes over the top preflop you're putting him on aces, does this mean we're folding to a 5bet?
Posted by yb

If he comes over the top pre then I know there's a very high chance he's got them although it's by no means a certainty. Having said that I really don't think I could find the fold button pre in that situation anyway so unless I have a 100% solid read on my oppo then no, I'm not folding to a 5 bet pre.

yb

In Response to Re: What do I do on this flop??:

In Response to Re: What do I do on this flop?? : If he comes over the top pre then I know there's a very high chance he's got them although it's by no means a certainty. Having said that I really don't think I could find the fold button pre in that situation anyway so unless I have a 100% solid read on my oppo then no, I'm not folding to a 5 bet pre.
Posted by silentbob

lol good, I dont think folding KK pre is ever going to work out for someone in the long run at 8NL, especially when only ~ 100bbs deep.

mrrivaz05

so u 4x raise UTG he mins clicks it back, you put a decent 4bet in and he flats in position. The range i would give the villain here is a big suited ace, and possbily big pairs from tens up (excluding aces and obviously kings) and he has gone set mining with the implied of stacking you.

Your hand is allmost face up.twice you have shown immense strength preflop, when the ace hits the flop i would probably check call dependant on my read of the weight of the bet,and then re evaluate on the turn.

I see this way more informational,than bet folding when the guy jams, and also any decent player will most likely understand C betting, and if you fire this flop your almost forced to make a crying call because of pot odds

Personally, i think when he 3bets your UTG raise preflop my 4 bet would have probably been bigger,firstly my opponent would be left shorter post flop, and 2nd whatever happens after your 4bet your committed and the decision is made easier.

if he is deeper, then it plays different

thoughts?

silentbob

In Response to Re: What do I do on this flop??:

so u 4x raise UTG he mins clicks it back, you put a decent 4bet in and he flats in position. The range i would give the villain here is a big suited ace, and possbily big pairs from tens up (excluding aces and obviously kings) and he has gone set mining with the implied of stacking you. Your hand is allmost face up.twice you have shown immense strength preflop, when the ace hits the flop i would probably check call dependant on my read of the weight of the bet,and then re evaluate on the turn. I see this way more informational,than bet folding when the guy jams, and also any decent player will most likely understand C betting, and if you fire this flop your almost forced to make a crying call because of pot odds Personally, i think when he 3bets your UTG raise preflop my 4 bet would have probably been bigger,firstly my opponent would be left shorter post flop, and 2nd whatever happens after your 4bet your committed and the decision is made easier. if he is deeper, then it plays different thoughts?
Posted by mrrivaz05

I've known for a while now that bet sizing is quite a weak area of my game as I either tend to bet too big or not enough, although I do feel that I am gradually getting better with it (there's always something to learn in this game I think).

You say you would 4 bet bigger pre here so what would you make it? I thought it was big enough but maybe not?

mrrivaz05

this hand is so tough....

I actually think your bet sizing was judged excellently,the only problem is with your opponents stack size its a hard shove to call on that board. I know in my home games i try to eliminate as many difficult decisions i can. You 4x raise UTG and he MIN clicks it back over to you. You 4 bet to around £2.50 and if he calls that puts his stack at around (approx) £5 and the pot £6. He called the £1.68 so why not £2.50? this should tell him hes playing for his entire stack should he wish to continue in the hand (well it would for me if i were the villan). If he does decide to call this heavier bet, your range for him is getting smaller.

Then were to the flop and it brings the ace. Im C betting here nearly all the time except with this type of action.
Its a cooler either way. Looking at your stack you had a profitable session so maybe you didnt fancy the KK VS AK all in pre.

If this were me i would probably do as you did, but C bet the flop and call an all in.

Me and a m8 of mine chatted about this hand for ages, and given the stack of your opponent, the hand plays itself.