Too weak?

Dudeskin8

I make standard raise on button after a limper. Flop brings the Ace but then they just bet 150 and i call then same down the streets, is this too weak to only call the bets or should I just be happy they didnt bet more ?

killy73	Small blind		75.00	75.00	10225.00
kingy46	Big blind		150.00	225.00	36312.50
	Your hole cards	Q Q
WHEELS7161	Call		150.00	375.00	13175.00
imber	Fold
fr4nkie	Fold
Dudeskin8	Raise		600.00	975.00	7440.00
killy73	Call		525.00	1500.00	9700.00
kingy46	Call		450.00	1950.00	35862.50
WHEELS7161	Call		450.00	2400.00	12725.00
Flop
		10 6 A
killy73	Bet		150.00	2550.00	9550.00
kingy46	Call		150.00	2700.00	35712.50
WHEELS7161	Call		150.00	2850.00	12575.00
Dudeskin8	Call		150.00	3000.00	7290.00
Turn
		5
killy73	Bet		150.00	3150.00	9400.00
kingy46	Call		150.00	3300.00	35562.50
WHEELS7161	Call		150.00	3450.00	12425.00
Dudeskin8	Call		150.00	3600.00	7140.00
River
		A
killy73	Bet		150.00	3750.00	9250.00
kingy46	Call		150.00	3900.00	35412.50
WHEELS7161	Fold
Dudeskin8	Call		150.00	4050.00	6990.00
killy73	Show	8 8
kingy46	Show	K 10
Dudeskin8	Show	Q Q
Dudeskin8	Win	Two Pairs, Aces and Queens	4050.00		11040.00

Batkin88

def worth a raise on flop. k 10 may have shoved on flop to a re raise however which would be hard to call.
Its a tough one and with them calling ur raises pre u would put them on an ace, and the obv flush.

I would raise pot on flop and you would lose the 8 8 hand. And then when the heart comes iwould just call it down

IANMAC1

hi dude, im very surprised that you didnt re-raise to find out were you are. c-bet the flop and you take it down there and then. i uderstand you being concerned about the ace, but you didnt ask your opps the question!

Dudeskin8

Normally I would raise but I don't think that option is available as I have 7.4k when it gets to me the pot is 2.85k so a C-bt needs to be 2k to have any impact, and then do I just fold when they raise ?

LOL_RAISE

RAISING THIS FLOP IS VERY VERY  BAD. THANKYOU

as played its fine

beaneh

I would play it the same.

dont raise frop.

SHANXTA

In Response to Re: Too weak?:

def worth a raise on flop. k 10 may have shoved on flop to a re raise however which would be hard to call. Its a tough one and with them calling ur raises pre u would put them on an ace, and the obv flush. I would raise pot on flop and you would lose the 8 8 hand. And then when the heart comes iwould just call it down
Posted by Batkin88

so you raise flop, to fold out pretty much anything you're beating, then if the flush draw gets there, (prob d only range left on the flop that you were beating) you call it down anyway?

Batkin88

In Response to Re: Too weak?:

In Response to Re: Too weak? : so you raise flop, to fold out pretty much anything you're beating, then if the flush draw gets there, (prob d only range left on the flop that you were beating) you call it down anyway?
Posted by SHANXTA

Yes unless i had a read they where on a flush then fold, your quick to read into opinions shanxt, why dont u give your opinion thats what he asks. Effectivly you keep doing this to what i say and everytime you dont give an opinion. Its grating and not needed he wants an opinion and i gave him what i would do. Whe n that flop comes i want to end hand if the flop is shoved after a reraise you can accept your behind IMO!

In this situation i wouldnt want a 3 man pot either thats common sense. 

Tell him/her what you would do without reading everyone elses threads and just agreeing with the majority
 

SHANXTA

In Response to Re: Too weak?:

In Response to Re: Too weak? : Yes unless i had a read they where on a flush then fold, your quick to read into opinions shanxt, why dont u give your opinion thats what he asks. Effectivly you keep doing this to what i say and everytime you dont give an opinion. Its grating and not needed he wants an opinion and i gave him what i would do. Whe n that flop comes i want to end hand if the flop is shoved after a reraise you can accept your behind IMO! In this situation i wouldnt want a 3 man pot either thats common sense.  Tell him/her what you would do without reading everyone elses threads and just agreeing with the majority  
Posted by Batkin88

fwiw i would play it the same as he has, i should prob have stated that in my original post

yb

Perfecto imo.

Raising this flop is just lol. Batkin when we raise we do so for 2 reasons: for value or to bluff. In this case an ace isnt folding and a raise probably folds out any worse so we achieve neither.

Dudeskin why would you raise if you had a deeper stack?

Batkin88

In Response to Re: Too weak?:

Perfecto imo. Raising this flop is just lol. Batkin when we raise we do so for 2 reasons: for value or to bluff. In this case an ace isnt folding and a raise probably folds out any worse so we achieve neither. Dudeskin why would you raise if you had a deeper stack?
Posted by yb

3 reasons

Value
Bluff
Or to ask the question.
A re raise on the flop is a standard steal with anyhand so u still have no idea what he has

yb

I dont think many players would put in a sizeable bluff raise on an ace high board in a 4 way pot, so if someone raises the flop min bet its a pretty easy fold.

And raising to ask questions is bad. Who's to say they are going to give the right answers anyway, a player could reraise with a bluff, or slowplay by just flatting your 'information raise' with a monster.

offshoot

In Response to Re: Too weak?:

In Response to Re: Too weak? : Yes unless i had a read they where on a flush then fold, your quick to read into opinions shanxt, why dont u give your opinion thats what he asks. Effectivly you keep doing this to what i say and everytime you dont give an opinion. Its grating and not needed he wants an opinion and i gave him what i would do. Whe n that flop comes i want to end hand if the flop is shoved after a reraise you can accept your behind IMO! In this situation i wouldnt want a 3 man pot either thats common sense.  Tell him/her what you would do without reading everyone elses threads and just agreeing with the majority  
Posted by Batkin88

its fine to point out when people are wrong. This forum is for learning. When someone disagrees with you its nothing personal.  shanxta was just poiniting out what he saw as flaws in your logic. There might be something to learn in that.

Batkin88

its an aggressive tactic which works for me and it works, everyone plays diff i know ur a good player so not saying ur way is wrong but i would personally raise here.
However it seems that i am always the minority on these threads so i guess thats why my plays work.(I like to be diff)
But this is my opion and everyone is entitled to there own but when you say most players dont do things or thats not what everyone else would do it isnt true, if u didnt have the ace you would fold there if u had the ace with a low kicker u would probably fold. You wouldnt flat call a re re raise with nothing u would prob raise again or fold. And then to re raise the re raise and bet on turn without the ace would make u a stupid poker player.
So IMO re raising gives u an answer str8 away in this situation

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Too weak?:

Perfecto imo. Raising this flop is just lol. Batkin when we raise we do so for 2 reasons: for value or to bluff. In this case an ace isnt folding and a raise probably folds out any worse so we achieve neither. Dudeskin why would you raise if you had a deeper stack?
Posted by yb

If for example it was the start of the tourmey when I'm 150-200 bb's deep and sumone just min bets followed by 2 calls I probably would raise representing AK/AQ as what i've seen for me looks very weak. Obviously then if they reraise then I'm forced to fold, but I would think in this situation they are less likely to have a big hand than the times they have a big one as surely 4 handed they'd want to thin the field down themselves.
 
I'm not sure if raising with a larger amount of blinds like I've just said is right but please explain why it's not the best move ?

yb

In Response to Re: Too weak?:

In Response to Re: Too weak? : If for example it was the start of the tourmey when I'm 150-200 bb's deep and sumone just min bets followed by 2 calls I probably would raise representing AK/AQ as what i've seen for me looks very weak. Obviously then if they reraise then I'm forced to fold, but I would think in this situation they are less likely to have a big hand than the times they have a big one as surely 4 handed they'd want to thin the field down themselves.   I'm not sure if raising with a larger amount of blinds like I've just said is right but please explain why it's not the best move ?
Posted by Dudeskin8

By raising this flop and repping AK/AQ that means you're turning your hand into a bluff, but I dont think trying to get someone to fold a weaker ace is a good idea as in the long run it will be very -EV imo. By raising all you will really achieve is to fold out better and give away more chips when you're behind, whereas by flatting you're keeping the pot small and then can re-evaluate on the turn depending on the card / his bet size / his betting tendencies etc, and also by flatting the flop you give him a chance to continue with worse / bluffs on later streets.

Batkin88

In Response to Re: Too weak?:

In Response to Re: Too weak? : If for example it was the start of the tourmey when I'm 150-200 bb's deep and sumone just min bets followed by 2 calls I probably would raise representing AK/AQ as what i've seen for me looks very weak. Obviously then if they reraise then I'm forced to fold, but I would think in this situation they are less likely to have a big hand than the times they have a big one as surely 4 handed they'd want to thin the field down themselves.   I'm not sure if raising with a larger amount of blinds like I've just said is right but please explain why it's not the best move ?
Posted by Dudeskin8

I can see y he says dont raise and i dont think the amount of chips u have shouldnt alter what u do to a huge extent. But u have just said in this situation they are less likely to have a good hand than a bad one.
I was trying to get my point across but it just wasnt happening this is the exact reason why i feel a reraise is in order here!

First of all ur in a 4 person pot, qq are not favourites on that flop
second by reraising u will find the ace or bring down the pot! If someone calls with 10 or less they will not be betting again they will be calling your bets, so this gives you pot control and puts you in control of the hand.
Thirdly the one person who folded on the river, he was chasing and you all where letting him chase for cheap if he hit u would all lose chips to someone who would fold to a flop re raise.
And last of all this is the only time in this hand you will probably be able to get an ace to fold (low kicker)
You may say this is bluffing your hand but your getting vital info and by just calling ur in a four way heads up effectivley and 9 times out of ten someone is sitting there with an ace happily calling along with a shoddy kicker.
Also to finish this off a reraise here is not costing you anymore chips than the pot has either, because you will be able to control the pot after this bet, if you cannot control it you will know ur behind. E.g. U re raise pot u get one caller, turn he will almost def check with whatever he has expecting u to bet so u will be in control.

offshoot

so how much would you raise?

Batkin88

600 to 800 i dont think half the pot is needed to fish out the ace personally

offshoot

In Response to Re: Too weak?:

First of all ur in a 4 person pot, qq are not favourites on that flop second by reraising u will find the ace or bring down the pot!
Posted by Batkin88

ok so you raise and you get everything to fold but an ace. If no one has an ace you take down the pot yes?

ok so say no one has an ace everyone folds you win a pot of 2850.

Say you raise to 600, someone has an ace and they call. You then check it down and you lose 1200 chips.

say you dont raise and just play it like dudeskin did you win a 4050 pot or lose 1050 chips when someone has you beat.

this is simplified but you get the point. One option is clearly better than the other. Youre overvaluing the strength of your hand by raising. This is not a good flop vs 3 players to be shovelling the chips in.

In Response to Re: Too weak?:

In Response to Re: Too weak? :  and 9 times out of ten someone is sitting there with an ace happily calling along with a shoddy kicker.
Posted by Batkin88

this is true, a lot of the time someone will have an ace in a 4way raised pot, and they wont fold when you raise flop, so why give them chips. Why try and bluff someone off an ace when that never works, why not try and get to showdown cheaply and hope your hand is good?

Batkin88

In Response to Re: Too weak?:

In Response to Re: Too weak? : ok so you raise and you get everything to fold but an ace. If no one has an ace you take down the pot yes? ok so say no one has an ace everyone folds you win a pot of 2850. Say you raise to 600, someone has an ace and they call. You then check it down and you lose 1200 chips. say you dont raise and just play it like dudeskin did you win a 4050 pot or lose 1050 chips when someone has you beat. this is simplified but you get the point. One option is clearly better than the other. Youre overvaluing the strength of your hand by raising. This is not a good flop vs 3 players to be shovelling the chips in. In Response to Re: Too weak? : this is true, a lot of the time someone will have an ace in a 4way raised pot, and they wont fold when you raise flop, so why give them chips. Why try and bluff someone off an ace when that never works, why not try and get to showdown cheaply and hope your hand is good?
Posted by offshoot

It just isnt how i would play it, i havent disagreed with the way he played it i just wouldnt play it that way.
What if he increases bets on turn and river? do u still call?
And if u where in this pot would u play it exactly the same? would u raise more pre? And why let ppl chase?

offshoot

if he increased his bets then i fold cos im probably beat and i found it out without having to raise!

i would probably play the hand the same as Dudeskin. Its not always about pricing out draws. With weaker hands i would be more concerned about keeping the pot small rather than trying to take the pot down by risking more chips.

Batkin88

In Response to Re: Too weak?:

if he increased his bets then i fold cos im probably beat and i found it out without having to raise! i would probably play the hand the same as Dudeskin. Its not always about pricing out draws. With weaker hands i would be more concerned about keeping the pot small rather than trying to take the pot down by risking more chips.
Posted by offshoot

I still wouldnt play it that way but like i said i dont disagree with they play.
One more thing if you had the ten in your hand what would you do?

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Too weak?:

In Response to Re: Too weak? : By raising this flop and repping AK/AQ that means you're turning your hand into a bluff, but I dont think trying to get someone to fold a weaker ace is a good idea as in the long run it will be very -EV imo. By raising all you will really achieve is to fold out better and give away more chips when you're behind, whereas by flatting you're keeping the pot small and then can re-evaluate on the turn depending on the card / his bet size / his betting tendencies etc, and also by flatting the flop you give him a chance to continue with worse / bluffs on later streets.
Posted by yb

Yh I get where your coming from, what I struggle with sometimes is probably being too aggressive when I think I have the best hand or in this spot think someone is bluffing me so i try and bluff back. In position especially it defo makes sense to just let them keep betting into you with weak hands and keeping it small makes it cheaper down the streets plus a raise only gets called by better which I have to learn lol.