Should I see this coming?

Ploppy33

stevebob05	Small blind		15.00	15.00	4740.00
x	Big blind		30.00	45.00	4195.00
	Your hole cards	J Q
kimnmick	Call		30.00	75.00	5040.00
Ploppy33	Call		30.00	105.00	5557.50
Geth92	Fold
dannieslad	Call		30.00	135.00	5972.50
stevebob05	Fold
x	Check
Flop
		J 8 J
x	Check
kimnmick	Bet		135.00	270.00	4905.00
Ploppy33	Raise		270.00	540.00	5287.50
dannieslad	Fold
x	Call		270.00	810.00	3925.00
kimnmick	Fold
Turn
		6
x	Check
Ploppy33	Bet		810.00	1620.00	4477.50
x	Call		810.00	2430.00	3115.00
River
		9
x	Bet		2430.00	4860.00	685.00
Ploppy33	Call		2430.00	7290.00	2047.50
xl	Show	Q 10
Ploppy33	Muck	J Q
x	Win	Straight to the Queen	7290.00		7975.00

This was only lv2 of £2 Deepstack put villain on failed flush draw - am I right to call river?

Was my betting thro the streets ok?

I know the raise Pre arguments but does not work at this level as no-one puts down even semi-playable hands all u end up doing is increasing pot size & playing out of position from behind if dont hit (will be at least 5 rag aces around) not to mention encouraging the "its only £2 and i've got 2 cards & biggish pot lets go all-in pre & hope"

LOL_RAISE

raise bigger on flop, 450-500ish. raise or fold pre i hate overlimping UTG+1

Ploppy33

In Response to Re: Should I see this coming?:

raise bigger on flop, 450-500ish. raise or fold pre i hate overlimping UTG+1
Posted by LOL_RAISE

cant raise pre as already stated as has no effect & my hand marginal anyway - I agree higher lv this is a raise/fold hand but as this lv I will be playing against A4, 109o, 65S etc (regardless of raise) therefore I dont want to fold pre.

If do raise good chance of the allin-ers with 96o having a go - would u call a 4 bet all-in with QJs?

DeucesLive

If you know their range is that wide for a fact, then yes. But definitely on the flop you should raise a chunk more if you think you're getting action anyway, the point of raising pre is to build the pot when you do hit. QJ plays quite nicely against a wide range of hands.

When you hit the flop that good, you want enough chips in the middle to shove the turn provided it doesn't seem to complete many draws, so I'd reraise to like 500 or so, like lolraise said. Then assuming you get called, jam the turn- if they want to continue with their draws, make it expensive, but most importantly- don't give them any room to bluff, as soon as you shove any move they make has zero fold equity, they can't set up a river play. They have to choose whether to stonewall gamble or get out of the way, and if they gamble- 80% of the time you're doubling up.

Ploppy33

In Response to Re: Should I see this coming?:

If you know their range is that wide for a fact, then yes. But definitely on the flop you should raise a chunk more if you think you're getting action anyway, the point of raising pre is to build the pot when you do hit. QJ plays quite nicely against a wide range of hands. When you hit the flop that good, you want enough chips in the middle to shove the turn provided it doesn't seem to complete many draws, so I'd reraise to like 500 or so, like lolraise said. Then assuming you get called, jam the turn- if they want to continue with their draws, make it expensive, but most importantly- don't give them any room to bluff, as soon as you shove any move they make has zero fold equity, they can't set up a river play. They have to choose whether to stonewall gamble or get out of the way, and if they gamble- 80% of the time you're doubling up.
Posted by DeucesLive

ok so 500ish on flop - my only concern is scaring them away at this point - the points made about callers only applies pre-flop - generally if they dont hit they fold. But the 500 seems sound advise thanks guys

U mentioned "jamming" the turn - sorry fairly new & not 100% on the lingo - is this pot value bet?

I understand what ur saying that I need to build pot post flop - my 270 doesnt do this.

I assume that if I do this, ie raise more substancially, I must continue to do this (obviosly not all the time) even if I dont hit the flop so substancially for example qxx. So as to not become too predictable?

DeucesLive

Jamming=shoving- basically go allin on the turn unless it's a definite scare card. There's very few hands there that have you beat, and anything that does is *probably* not reraising on the flop, they'd be happy to flat and let you do the betting for them.

When you're playing bad players, like calling stations that call anything pre, what they will normally do is call most flops if they have any part of it- that's top pair weak kicker, second pair strong kicker, sometimes even second pair weak kicker. Any draw, even gutshots, and flush draws and you won't get rid of them. Sometimes they hit really big, and you have to shrug it off as a danger of playing stations. But what you ALWAYS have to do is make it expensive for them when you hit big, which you did- 500 will probably get paid on that flop.

The raise preflop (say to 150) means there's that much more in the pot on the flop to now get them off it. If they're capable of folding post flop, a 3/4 pot bet of 400 will have much more chance of taking it down than a 3/4 pot bet of 100 or so, which is what you get without any raise pre. They'll call that all day. If you miss the flop entirely, no draws at all, just let it go- don't get attached to your raise.

And regarding obvious play... I really wouldn't worry at this stage, play ABC until the latter stages, people aren't good enough to think about your cards as well as your own. If they're calling anything pre, as you said, then just focus on playing premium hands aggressively, and take down a few big pots and stay out of everything else.

YOUNG_GUN

deuces i think is my fave poster here now, seems to say what i think but puts it accross really well