Overpair + oesd but flop hits villains range big

OMahonyO

Ok, so even before flop, Im thinking his range is tt, jj,qq, ak, but I also have a big hand, what do you do here.
Villain doesnt seem to be getting out of line but not played vs him much

BIGSHANN	Small blind		£0.20	£0.20	£22.07
KB9_is_GOD	Big blind		£0.40	£0.60	£10.78
OMahonyO	Big blind		£0.40	£1.00	£59.10
	Your hole cards	K K
robbie1985	Call		£0.40	£1.40	£1.20
westslay23	Raise		£2.00	£3.40	£40.97
OMahonyO	Raise		£7.20	£10.60	£51.90
DIAGIO	Fold
BIGSHANN	Fold
KB9_is_GOD	Fold
robbie1985	All-in		£1.20	£11.80	£0.00
westslay23	Call		£5.60	£17.40	£35.37
Flop
		Q J 10
westslay23	Check

freechips1

dont be such a tight ar se, pay the man off hehe.
i have to c bet here to get value from AQ, QK, 99.  If your rearly concerned its hit him in the face then check back the flop to keep the pot small.
why dont you think villan can have a under pair or AQ, KQ?
wont villan 4 bet pre with QQ, AK or JJ?

DOHHHHHHH

Nowt to do with the hand, but if u think he cud have AK/TT/JJ/QQ, as the most likely holdings, but he may have AQ/KQ or 99.......do you still bet?

What Im asking is if he has 7 possible hands and u can beat only 3, should u still be betting?

freechips1

he could also have 22-88 and hoping to flop a set, if we knew more about villan we might be able to take AK, QQ, JJ out of his range.

Sky_Dave

While it's textured, I actually don't mind this flop for your hand too much. You say it hits his range big, but then you've only mentioned flopped sets or straights. Other hands you should put into the mix against a decent, not-out-of-line opponent has to include things like KQ/KJ/AQ/AJ/AT/<99 just as easily, i.e., pair/draw combos.

Personally, with the stack sizes as they are post-flop I'd bet ~£13 into £17 with a view to calling off the rest. If he calls the flop bet, I shove pretty much any turn card.

Conclusion: get it in

DeucesLive

Has it really hit his range that good? He could raise with a massive range, and once he's put the bet in- decided he wants to see a flop with the implied odds that if he hits, he's gonna get paid big because you've got a monster. He could have any pair, AK/AQ/AJ/KQ, possibly even suited connectors in that range.

You've been the aggressor preflop, and have the momentum- this board hits YOUR range too. I'd go with betting out and then you've got your answer- but even if he does shove on you, I think you have to get it in and if he's flopped a set- spike one of your 10 outs and bink him. If he's got AK, then meh- nh. Spike running cards for the FH.

No matter what holding he has, you're not drawing dead here. Regarding Dohhh's question- you have 3 hands dominated, 3 where you're around a 60/40 underdog, and one where you're utterly dominated. Get the money in for me.

DOHHHHHHH

Do you guys really call big 3 bets out of position with a wide range of hands?????

I know the villain fairly well and he's quite solid.......not nitty, but not loose.....

I would consider a call here with 22-99, or AQ/KQ, to be a very loose call.

It's a big 3 bet, and he is only 100xbb deep. - - - AM I FOLDING TOO MANY HANDS TO 3 BETS???

offshoot

seems like a check to me. If he checks turn you have the best hand if he bets you probably dont.

yb

If he's quite tight I probably check back here, you'll still have the chance to get 2 streets of value in if he can have AQ/KQ.

And so what if he can have 22-88 etc? He isn't calling a bet anyway and we don't need to protect our hand against these holdings.

offshoot

we dont need to protect our hand against anything so there is no harm in checking. I would rather lose value from KQ/AQ etc rather than get stacked aginst straights/2pair/sets.

OMahonyO

I`m surprised people are assigning such a wide range to villain here.  It must be sheer coincidence that I rarely encounter people that are calling big 3bets oop with small pp`s kj, a10 etc.

Its only 100bb effective, could maybe put some of those in his range if we were a lot deeper.  I actually thought I was being generous putting tt in his range

pryce6

In Response to Re: Overpair + oesd but flop hits villains range big:

I`m surprised people are assigning such a wide range to villain here.  It must be sheer coincidence that I rarely encounter people that are calling big 3bets oop with small pp`s kj, a10 etc. Its only 100bb effective, could maybe put some of those in his range if we were a lot deeper.  I actually thought I was being generous putting tt in his range
Posted by OMahonyO

Villain is just one of the army of nits at this level. He has most likely QQ, maybe AK, JJ. Assigning a wide range here is just stupid, I've never seen a reg at nl30/40 call a 3 bet oop, let alone with 22-88 or AT-AQ.

beaneh

In Response to Re: Overpair + oesd but flop hits villains range big:

Nowt to do with the hand, but if u think he cud have AK/TT/JJ/QQ, as the most likely holdings, but he may have AQ/KQ or 99.......do you still bet? What Im asking is if he has 7 possible hands and u can beat only 3, should u still be betting?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

errm it's not 7 to 3....lol

DOHHHHHHH

LOST ME !!

Whats ur take on the hand mr bean?

beaneh

In Response to Re: Overpair + oesd but flop hits villains range big:

LOST ME !! Whats ur take on the hand mr bean?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

I didn't say anything about the hand, just that

 he cud have AK/TT/JJ/QQ, as the most likely holdings, but he may have AQ/KQ or 99.......do you still bet?

What Im asking is if he has 7 possible hands and u can beat only 3, should u still be betting?

You're numbers are incorrect is what I was saying.

OMahonyO

Ok, next stage of the hand.  Do I bet here, if so how much.  Do I call a raise, do I shove on a raise, do I call a shove etc....

BIGSHANN	Small blind		£0.20	£0.20	£22.07
KB9_is_GOD	Big blind		£0.40	£0.60	£10.78
OMahonyO	Big blind		£0.40	£1.00	£59.10
	Your hole cards	K K
robbie1985	Call		£0.40	£1.40	£1.20
westslay23	Raise		£2.00	£3.40	£40.97
OMahonyO	Raise		£7.20	£10.60	£51.90
DIAGIO	Fold
BIGSHANN	Fold
KB9_is_GOD	Fold
robbie1985	All-in		£1.20	£11.80	£0.00
westslay23	Call		£5.60	£17.40	£35.37
Flop
		Q J 10
westslay23	Check
OMahonyO	Check
Turn
		8
westslay23	Check

beaneh

In Response to Re: Overpair + oesd but flop hits villains range big:

LOST ME !! Whats ur take on the hand mr bean?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Have you forgotten this already?

"So I add all those hands up, and figure out if he folds with more than he would call/raise with? So wud fold the 66, 77, 99 hands  (3)"

This is sort of right. Except that instead of classing pocket sixes as one instance you have to assess them using combinatrics (looking at the possible combinations of cards that can make each hand regardless of the order you list them [this isn't permutations]).

So instead of saying 66/77/99 = 3 combos = 3 hands.

You have 6s 6h 6c 6d

6s 6c

6s 6h

6s 6d

6d 6c

6h 6c

6d 6h

Those are the only way to make pocket sixes which is 6 combinations.

Now as an aside imagine that you know the 6 of spades was exposed and isn't in play,  there are now only 3 combinations, Similarly with AK there are 6 combinations of aces and 6 combinations of kings, there are 16 combinations of AK. So taking that further on if you have AcKc in your hand you have what are called blockers (Having AcKc reduces from 12 to 6 the number of possible combinations of aces and kings, so when you have AK you should be half as less expectant to see Aces or Kings as normal).

So in this instance you would say there are 18 combinations of those 3 pairs, 6 each. 

Mahoney bet thee flop don't be scared! Ghay turn check again now I guess. 

LOL_RAISE

3bet preflop is wayyyyyy too big you make it 19bbs. a standard 3bet size is 10-12bbs. this *should* tighten up his calling range a whole lot

OMahonyO

In Response to Re: Overpair + oesd but flop hits villains range big:

In Response to Re: Overpair + oesd but flop hits villains range big : Have you forgotten this already? "So I add all those hands up, and figure out if he folds with more than he would call/raise with? So wud fold the 66, 77, 99 hands  (3)" This is sort of right. Except that instead of classing pocket sixes as one instance you have to assess them using combinatrics (looking at the possible combinations of cards that can make each hand regardless of the order you list them [this isn't permutations]). So instead of saying 66/77/99 = 3 combos = 3 hands. You have 6s 6h 6c 6d 6s 6c 6s 6h 6s 6d 6d 6c 6h 6c 6d 6h Those are the only way to make pocket sixes which is 6 combinations. Now as an aside imagine that you know the 6 of spades was exposed and isn't in play,  there are now only 3 combinations, Similarly with AK there are 6 combinations of aces and 6 combinations of kings, there are 16 combinations of AK. So taking that further on if you have AcKc in your hand you have what are called blockers (Having AcKc reduces from 12 to 6 the number of possible combinations of aces and kings, so when you have AK you should be half as less expectant to see Aces or Kings as normal). So in this instance you would say there are 18 combinations of those 3 pairs, 6 each.  Mahoney bet thee flop don't be scared! Ghay turn check again now I guess. 
Posted by beaneh

Good job u only have a few seconds to make a decision or I would feel I had to learn all this.  Seriously, all that cant be goin thru your head when you have to make a decison.  Its all good in hindsight , but by then its too late

OMahonyO

In Response to Re: Overpair + oesd but flop hits villains range big:

3bet preflop is wayyyyyy too big you make it 19bbs. a standard 3bet size is 10-12bbs. this *should* tighten up his calling range a whole lot
Posted by LOL_RAISE

I didnt think it was that big, anyway, doesnt it depend on the size of the first raise, if the opener makes it 4bb, im never making it 10bb.  Also there was a limper in before him.  I know that probs dont affect much but I always like to make it slightly bigger if anyone has shown interest.  But yeah, its quite big which is why im surprised at the range ppl are assigning this guy

beaneh

I'm like the guy from prison break i've tattooed all this info all over ma body. Just sit here grinding in the buff looking for all the info as I play obv. :-)

OMahonyO

In Response to Re: Overpair + oesd but flop hits villains range big:

I'm like the guy from prison break i've tattooed all this info all over ma body. Just sit here grinding in the buff looking for all the info as I play obv. :-)
Posted by beaneh

never thought of that, are u surrounded by mirrors or do u just stak off wen the info u need is on ur a.s.s

LOL_RAISE

surely you should be really fat then so u can has lots of extra skin for new information

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Overpair + oesd but flop hits villains range big:

surely you should be really fat then so u can has lots of extra skin for new information
Posted by LOL_RAISE

This is why I'm so good and haven't had a downswing in 5 years.

I'm also quite formidable at arm wrestling.

Prop bet ne1?

freechips1

I think your 3 bet is fine, its 40nl peeps dont fold.
if you check the flop i cant see how or why you should bet the turn, you thought you was behind so you still will be.
If villan has a queen surely he must bet turn to protect his hand vs straight draws.
I would still bet the flop, if you where both sat 200bb deep then yes i can understand checking the flop to keep the pot under control.

freechips1

rest of hand plz

OMahonyO

I cba to look for the hh to post again but I checked behind.  He bet £8ish on blank river and I called.  He took the pot with AK.

I seriously had a bad feeling about this hand as soon as that flop came.  theres no way I can put him on the range some have stated in this thread, it happens so rarely......obv im stakin off to some players who have maniacal tedancies.
Im just awaiting the `well played, you made a read and went with it, you are awesome....plz coach me` posts.

Seriously though, I know its all about what makes more in the long run, but I was in a spot I really didnt like here.

Also, I know if im so sure of myself then I shouldnt be calling his river bet.....well obv i wasnt 100% sure but I was pretty made up with myself wen I called and realised, that on another day, in another mood or whatever, Im doing my stack.

Good boost for the confidence when this happens, esp with my run of late.

rats107

In Response to Re: Overpair + oesd but flop hits villains range big:

In Response to Re: Overpair + oesd but flop hits villains range big : I didnt think it was that big, anyway, doesnt it depend on the size of the first raise, if the opener makes it 4bb, im never making it 10bb.  Also there was a limper in before him.  I know that probs dont affect much but I always like to make it slightly bigger if anyone has shown interest.  But yeah, its quite big which is why im surprised at the range ppl are assigning this guy
Posted by OMahonyO[d/QUOTE]

he can't be that solid if he's calling 3 bets that size @ 100bb (p.s was it me???)

OMahonyO

In Response to Re: Overpair + oesd but flop hits villains range big:

In Response to Re: Overpair + oesd but flop hits villains range big :

In Response to Re: Overpair + oesd but flop hits villains range big : I didnt think it was that big , anyway, doesnt it depend on the size of the first raise, if the opener makes it 4bb, im never making it 10bb.  Also there was a limper in before him.  I know that probs dont affect much but I always like to make it slightly bigger if anyone has shown interest.  But yeah, its quite big which is why im surprised at the range ppl are assigning this guy Posted by OMahonyO[d/QUOTE] he can't be that solid if he's calling 3 bets that size @ 100bb (p.s was it me???)
Posted by rats107

no it wasnt u....i left the name in didnt i?