Primo final table bust out hand for discussion (as requested by DOHHHHHHH)

GaryQQQ

This is the crazy hand where I busted out in 4th place last night.

Rightly or wrongly I decided to limp in pre-flop and see a cheap flop, confident based on previous action that the BB would check here with anything but a premium hand.

After flopping a flush draw with two overcards I decided to push. The guys either side of me had both gone rather timid at this stage and I thought two folds would be the most likely outcome. If I did get a caller I expected to have at least 9 outs, as the short stack at the table I was happy to take my chance and risk busting out to give myself a shot at doubling up and going for the win. When I shoved I had 138K behind and there was 36K in the pot.

Unfortunately the BB called with his superior flush draw and the best cards held up.

DOHHHHHHH has aked me to post this hand to see what the forum tournament specialists make of it.

Hand History #299388139 (00:16 18/10/2010)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
GaryQQQ	Small blind		6000.00	6000.00	144645.04
Cheeseman	Big blind		12000.00	18000.00	260957.98
	Your hole cards	10 J
toonjat66	Fold
masheder01	Call		12000.00	30000.00	383537.10
GaryQQQ	Call		6000.00	36000.00	138645.04
Cheeseman	Check
Flop
		7 6 3
GaryQQQ	All-in		138645.04	174645.04	0.00
Cheeseman	Call		138645.04	313290.08	122312.94
masheder01	Fold
GaryQQQ	Show	10 J
Cheeseman	Show	9 Q
Turn
		K
River
		9
Cheeseman	Win	Pair of 9s	313290.08		435603.02

DOHHHHHHH

......and the call by the opponent!!

Cheerz Gary.

YOUNG_GUN

Not a bad shove here gary, although im not a specialist, only difference ill 3 bet pre as lately as i mentioned to dohhhh earlier i prefer to fold or raise in small blind. After that flop i like the shove, just unlucky dominated on the flush front there but wp all the same

shaun09

Id be shoving there too. Like young said your just unlucky he had better flush draw. well played last night.

DOHHHHHHH

Can the opponent make that call????

Normally a massive overbet shove, is actually a draw.....

So he has to be worried that he's up against Ace x of diamonds???????

And with it being an unraised pot pre???? - Shud he be risking his tourny on a flush draw that might not even be good?

Should Gary be controlling the pot? - or is the shove to maximise fold equity the best way to go? If he makes a standard bet, he could easily get re-popped and have to lay it down?

Ahhhhhhh it's a mad hand, it happened so fast, hope the best tourny players take time to comment on this. Or even the poker clinic in the next primo.

scotty77

Rightly or wrongly I decided to limp in pre-flop and see a cheap flop, confident based on previous action that the BB would check here with anything but a premium hand.

Raise pre, esp given ur read that villain won't raise without premium.

As played I prob look to CRAI flop.  Don't really like the shove here as you are only getting it in behind/flipping.  If you check then he may take a stab with 9high or something and you can win a few extra chips.

pryce6

I'm fine limping here. Hate the shove though. I'd much rather c/r all in.

freechips1

a button limp by a passive player and BB is also passive, 13 BB, all in pre and i am doing this with alot worse than 10,j. IMO i think any other play is real bad. 

freechips1

In Response to Re: Primo final table bust out hand for discussion (as requested by DOHHHHHHH):

Can the opponent make that call???? Normally a massive overbet shove, is actually a draw..... So he has to be worried that he's up against Ace x of diamonds??????? And with it being an unraised pot pre???? - Shud he be risking his tourny on a flush draw that might not even be good? Should Gary be controlling the pot? - or is the shove to maximise fold equity the best way to go? If he makes a standard bet, he could easily get re-popped and have to lay it down? Ahhhhhhh it's a mad hand, it happened so fast, hope the best tourny players take time to comment on this. Or even the poker clinic in the next primo.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

All of your questions will go away if you shove pre.

lJAMESl

I just move in preflop

YOUNG_GUN

can i just ask why are some of us recommending we shove pre?? is it mainly because of vs a passive player? in that case why would 2.5 bb-3 not do the same job. i understand its harder to call then shove but i still dont understand fully why some and [james] are recomending this is it due to only have 13 bb? not questioning but learning people. James i think your obv good so want to learn thats only reason i am asking btw )

Patching99

Surely we are just in shove or fold mode here regardless of the players we are up against.  Limping is the worse move in my limited opinon... if we see a flop we dont like then do we check fold??  We don't have enough blinds to be giving them away losing some of fold equity we may have had for our next move.   Is this too simple way to look at it?

pryce6

meh people limp snap with so many hands on sky that beat us. I'd rather wait for a better spot.

sharkcj

i would shove pre due to your read on the player, he wont be calling with q9.
I think his call is odd due to you basically telling him your hand with the shove on the flop. But then by limping pre he may take the ACE and KING out of your hand range.
Well played to get so far.
Also with no callers or raisers you before you, you should never be folding pre here as short stack

percival09

I agree with Patching, I'd always either fold or shove (or raise 4x BB) ... but yeah I wouldn't flat it! 

And tbh, I don't really mind either of the plays, the shove is good, and the call is also fine in my opinion, 2 overs and a flush draw, beautiful! 

lJAMESl

In Response to Re: Primo final table bust out hand for discussion (as requested by DOHHHHHHH):

can i just ask why are some of us recommending we shove pre?? is it mainly because of vs a passive player? in that case why would 2.5 bb-3 not do the same job. i understand its harder to call then shove but i still dont understand fully why some and [james] are recomending this is it due to only have 13 bb?
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

Hi Young_gun

basically in a tournament this shallow the game becomes alot less about postflop skill and alot more about preflop pressure. I think its called the gap theory. A few years ago Dave Colclough did an article on it in a poker magazine. Its basically saying you can shove with any hand but you can only call the shove with a good hand. 

When we shove here you will show a profit so often because the player is only going to call with a certain range of hands - pocket pairs, Ace-King things like that.

Even if he does call we are most likely 50-50 or 60-40 at worst. Limping in just isn't as profitable here, even if the player is weak passive. Lets say we see a flop, it comes Jack high we bet the flop he folds or we check he checks it down. We still win his big blind but we are giving him a chance to see a free flop with a chance of flopping a better hand than us.

Its absolutely fine if we are say 30+ big blinds deep but I'm not much of a limper myself I always prefer a raise

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: Primo final table bust out hand for discussion (as requested by DOHHHHHHH):

In Response to Re: Primo final table bust out hand for discussion (as requested by DOHHHHHHH) : Hi Young_gun basically in a tournament this shallow the game becomes alot less about postflop skill and alot more about preflop pressure. I think its called the gap theory. A few years ago Dave Colclough did an article on it in a poker magazine. Its basically saying you can shove with any hand but you can only call the shove with a good hand.  When we shove here you will show a profit so often because the player is only going to call with a certain range of hands - pocket pairs, Ace-King things like that. Even if he does call we are most likely 50-50 or 60-40 at worst. Limping in just isn't as profitable here, even if the player is weak passive. Lets say we see a flop, it comes Jack high we bet the flop he folds or we check he checks it down. We still win his big blind but we are giving him a chance to see a free flop with a chance of flopping a better hand than us. Its absolutely fine if we are say 30+ big blinds deep but I'm not much of a limper myself I always prefer a raise
Posted by lJAMESl

Thanks james thats a great way of putting it, i wouldnt limp either just thought 2.5 or 3 x big blind would do the same job as its a passive player. although that said he is folding out much more hands if your shoving, cheers for the advice mate

DeucesLive

Put yourself in the callers shoes. What hands can you honestly call an allin with, even if you're pretty sure they're at it? 'at it' could mean a pair of deuces, K3, A2, 56- in fact, it could mean absolutely anything. How sure are you what they have though, and how does your hand stack up against it? Unless you have KJ+ or a strong ace (probably A9+) or a decent-ish pair (77+) you just can't call it, since your hand plays badly against sooo many. And a hand like 10Js is perfect to jam with, because it plays brilliantly against your opponents range- few hands he calls with are likely to include a J or 10. Much more likely it'll be combinations or A/K/Q and pps, if you're unlucky enough to get a call.

That's the beauty of preflop aggression, the first person to shove will win 90% of hands- because regardless of the fact you KNOW they're at it, you simply can't return fire without a premium hand- since there's no leeway with a shove. If you raise 3x with a garbage/average hand, what do you do if they shove over the top for 10bbs more? They can easily do that with any two cards also, and now YOU have a real tight spot, and it's hard calling off your stack with 10J, knowing you're almost certainly behind. Get em in first!!