Always a stack off here?

silentbob

I've only been at the table for about 10 minutes or so & I've got no reads on anyone. I vaguely recognise the name of the player in question so I may have come up against him at some stage previously but have no notes.

When he comes over the top here I think I'm probably in trouble but I have outs. The all in stinks of something like AA, KK or AK & if that's the case I've only got 9 outs as my ace would be no good. However, with no reads does anyone ever consider that he could be doing this with something like 1010-QQ (or even total air although I accept that's very unlikely)? It wouldn't be the first time I've seen people do things like this with these kind of hands at this level.

Also, fwiw my reasoning for betting out on the flop was partly because of his check. I thought that by betting out here I can represent the king & I think it also disguises my hand a bit as well if I do hit my flush. 

This hand has been bugging me all day & I'm just not sure if I did the correct thing here. Long term is a call profitable here? Also, with this being a cash game would the decision be any different if it was a tourney?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£19.40
	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£10.40
	Your hole cards	Q A
X	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£22.95
	Fold
silentbob	Raise		£1.50	£2.40	£18.20
	Fold
	Fold
X	Raise		£2.70	£5.10	£20.25
silentbob	Call		£1.80	£6.90	£16.40
Flop
		7 3 K
X	Check
silentbob	Bet		£3.50	£10.40	£12.90
X	All-in		£20.25	£30.65	£0.00
silentbob	Stack off???

zing

call as you need 2-1 on your money which you just about have given my calculations w/ an AK/AA/KK/QQ range vs you

beaneh

Hi Silent bob  as usual I like the fact you give reason/explanation/introduction etc.

Why did you specifically 3 bet preflop?

I would 3 bet more.

I would call the all in, if you are unsure of why work out what odds you are getting and therefore what percentage equity you need to make the call. Assign a range of hands for him to take these plays with and then use pokerstove to work out whether you have the equity required. :-)

silentbob

Thanks Beaneh

I'll definitely have a look at pokerstove cos when it comes to working out odds very quickly I'm a bit useless but I guess it becomes 2nd nature after a bit.

With regards to 3 betting pre, I had 2 reasons for doing so at the time. Firstly I've got a decent starting hand & secondly I'm in position. I knew that if he showed any weakness post flop then I've given myself an opportunity to take the hand away from him even if I missed. 

My biggest problem here is that although he didn't put in a massive 4 bet pre he has showed strength so if I get it in here although I've got outs it's likely that I'm getting it in bad & surely that's never a good thing?

I'm about to start a tourney now so I'll have a look at pokerstove when I bust out

beaneh

In Response to Re: Always a stack off here?:

Thanks Beaneh I'll definitely have a look at pokerstove cos when it comes to working out odds very quickly I'm a bit useless but I guess it becomes 2nd nature after a bit. With regards to 3 betting pre, I had 2 reasons for doing so at the time. Firstly I've got a decent starting hand & secondly I'm in position. I knew that if he showed any weakness post flop then I've given myself an opportunity to take the hand away from him even if I missed.  My biggest problem here is that although he didn't put in a massive 4 bet pre he has showed strength so if I get it in here although I've got outs it's likely that I'm getting it in bad & surely that's never a good thing? I'm about to start a tourney now so I'll have a look at pokerstove when I bust out
Posted by silentbob

Ok well basically.

If your oppo is going to c/shove draws on this flop or 1 pair hands then we deffo have to stack off, if your oppo only shoves sets that's a much less common occurrence but he will have a tonne more equity.

Flop is Kd7h3h we have AhQh

If he raise calls purrrs, a couple of suited connectors, big aces, and he 4 bets AK/QQ+ preflop we now have an idea of what to put into pokerstove (don't be afraid of it it's very simplistic to use but 'looks' very complicated, it really isn't though. It also does all the 'maths' for you so mathematical ability matters not).

Firstly from the hand history (be careful it's very easy to get confused with the different columns in the sky hh).

We have to cawl - 12.90

The pot is - (pot on flop + our bet + the effective amount he puts in). In this instance he puts in 20.25 but we only have 16.4 so his bet is 16.4). Thus the pot is (6.90+3.50+16.40)= 26.80

26.8/12.9 = 2.077.... so roughly 2:1 therefore we need ~ 33% equity or greater.

So at the table you can see its 13 into roughly 25 ish which shows you without all the maths that you need about 2:1. 

Vs a loose range that includes 1 pair hands and draws and weak bluffy hands,  AQhh has

Board: Kd 7h 3h 

           equity  win             tie                  pots won       pots tied

Hand 0:  39.690%   39.69%  00.00%           11395          0.00   { AhQh }

Hand 1:  60.310%   60.31%  00.00%           17315          0.00   { 77, 33, AKs, KJs+, 6h5h, 5h4h, AKo, KQo }

              39.69 > 33 if he plays these hands we are happy happy.

Now assume that he reraises AK preflop and doesn't jam flush draws (except for KJhh) or one pairs which is obviously very tight ...

Board: Kd 7h 3h

           equity       win       tie        pots won      pots tied

Hand 0:  27.561%   27.56%  00.00%            1910          0.00   { AhQh }

Hand 1:  72.439%   72.44%  00.00%            5020          0.00   { 77, 33, KhJh }

27.56 < 33 so against a ridiculously tight range we are not good to go getting these odds.

There are 3x as many hands in the top range for villain compared to the nitty one.

Have  a go with pokerstove and lemme know if you cant do what i've done above or if you have any questions. :thumbup:

(or if I cant do it ldo )

I have no idea why my post keeps failing or why it quotes it ten times but w/e

small text ftw. 

I'd suggest having a look at your equity vs different ranges when you have a less strong hand etc where you cant have overcards to the one pair or where there is a nut made hand out on the board or something

Patching99

Beaneh,

I have two questions, what does purrrs mean?

Secondly I don't get as high as equitys as you when entering into pokerstove:

Board: Kd 7h 3hDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 27.561% 27.56% 00.00% 1910 0.00 { AhQh }Hand 1: 72.439% 72.44% 00.00% 5020 0.00 { 77, 33, KhJh }　---Board: Kd 7h 3hDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 39.690% 39.69% 00.00% 11395 0.00 { AhQh }Hand 1: 60.310% 60.31% 00.00% 17315 0.00 { 77, 33, AKs, KJs+, 6h5h, 5h4h, AKo, KQo }

silentbob

Wow! Cheers Beaneh

This thing is great. However, like Patching though, I can't seem to get the equities as high as you have even though I've copied in what you've put like for like (or at least I think I have!)

Board: Kd 7h 3h

Dead:  

equity win tie      pots won pots tied

Hand 0: 39.690%   39.69% 00.00%         11395        0.00   { AhQh }

Hand 1: 60.310%   60.31% 00.00%         17315        0.00   { 77, 33, AKs, KJs+, 6h5h, 5h4h, AKo, KQo }

EDIT: Where it says KJs+ am I right in assuming that it doesn't include any other pocket pairs other than 77 & 33 which have been specified?

zing

i think he messed up his stoves a bit as he didn't include the board, the ones you posted are more correct.

however realistically in this spot you're better off stoving AhQh vs AA/KK/AK/maybe QQ and see your equities and see why it's the correct call.  

you need to take out some combos of cards which aren't available to get a very precise answer.

post your results and see if you can understand the math behind the call.

LOL_RAISE

its a 4bet pot with OC & fd vs a range of exactly KK+ and AK it is slightly +ev.

just in general flatting 4bets 100bb deep isnt that great.
what was your plan if  a) Qxx b) xxx and he checks or bets into you?

beaneh

1) lol raise just made me laugh saying it's a 4 bet pot completely missed it. i suckz

2) yeah I did it whilst playing and it was messing up whilst posting  but I thought it looked right. looking at it now I wish I had thought to say it was a massive level where I was going for fiddy fiddy (50:50) is only answer type response cant say I was tho. :-( what an epic fails

Im sure the basic point is the same ldo if not I can redo it without such an epic flail that or ill get lolraise to check it for me.

Purrrs = pairs obv

edit what I wanna know is how I highlighted that stuff without reading it lol. 

beaneh

In Response to Re: Always a stack off here?:

Beaneh, I have two questions, what does purrrs mean? Secondly I don't get as high as equitys as you when entering into pokerstove: Board: Kd 7h 3h Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 27.561% 27.56% 00.00% 1910 0.00 { AhQh } Hand 1: 72.439% 72.44% 00.00% 5020 0.00 { 77, 33, KhJh } 　 --- Board: Kd 7h 3h Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 39.690% 39.69% 00.00% 11395 0.00 { AhQh } Hand 1: 60.310% 60.31% 00.00% 17315 0.00 { 77, 33, AKs, KJs+, 6h5h, 5h4h, AKo, KQo }
Posted by Patching99

This is because you did it correct and I didn't! Ta.

(obv I did this on purpose to check you guys would notice )

beaneh

In Response to Re: Always a stack off here?:

i think he messed up his stoves a bit as he didn't include the board, the ones you posted are more correct. however realistically in this spot you're better off stoving AhQh vs AA/KK/AK/maybe QQ and see your equities and see why it's the correct call.   you need to take out some combos of cards which aren't available to get a very precise answer. post your results and see if you can understand the math behind the call.
Posted by zing

this. For mine imagine he flat called instead of 3 betting.

shelski

In Response to Always a stack off here?:
[silentbob Stack off???        
Yeah , what the hell why not. Only by going all in are you guaranteed to see your opponents cards. Curiosity adds a touch of spice to a game and gambling is fun.

silentbob

In Response to Re: Always a stack off here?:

i think he messed up his stoves a bit as he didn't include the board, the ones you posted are more correct. however realistically in this spot you're better off stoving AhQh vs AA/KK/AK/maybe QQ and see your equities and see why it's the correct call.   you need to take out some combos of cards which aren't available to get a very precise answer. post your results and see if you can understand the math behind the call.
Posted by zing

Yeah, it looks like a close call to me. Correct me if I'm thinking about this wrong, but with my equity here being 34% that means that at this point I'm 2/1 to hit a probable winning card right? Assuming I've got that bit right then give or take a few pennies I'm pretty much getting 2/1 on my money to make the call.

I did this with KK+. Stoving against QQ+ I'm 36% but it's still just about right (I think!)

Board: Kd 7h 3h

Dead:  

equity win tie      pots won pots tied

Hand 0: 34.020%   34.02% 00.00%          5052        0.00   { AhQh }

Hand 1: 65.980%   65.98% 00.00%          9798        0.00   { KK+, AKs, AKo }

silentbob

In Response to Re: Always a stack off here?:

its a 4bet pot with OC & fd vs a range of exactly KK+ and AK it is slightly +ev. just in general flatting 4bets 100bb deep isnt that great. what was your plan if  a) Qxx b) xxx and he checks or bets into you?
Posted by LOL_RAISE

So pre flop then, are you saying that it should probably be shove or fold when he 4 bets? How deep would you advocate being before you flat here?

If I'm being completely honest if the board comes Qxx then I'm probably stacking off here easier but it does also depend on what the xx is as well. My plan in general was that if I missed completely & he checked then I was going to have a stab at taking it down on the flop but would've been prepared to fold to a shove or raise at that point (is that really bad?)

LOL_RAISE

personally i would only flat a ~25-30bb 4bet if i was 150+bb deep, even then i dont really like it too much, especially if i dont have very good reads on villain.

his bet size is 3.30 total which is actually really small, i would expect normal 4bet sizes to be around the £5 (25bb) mark. id imagine this skews his range even further towards KK,AA as people will tend to 4bet bigger with AK & QQ at the smaller levels.

giving how small his 4bet is calling can never be too bad really aslong as he does have air/AK sometimes and we can win the pot postflop without having to always hit.