No choice but to fold a set?

TommyD

This is the second hand in the Monday D/S.  The villain is a decent LAG Reg, looser pre than post to be fair.  Old school thinking is of course why would someone shove after making a flush where as the new school knows this and that's why it's 'en vogue' to shove a turned flush.  Either way is there anything I can beat? (I couldn't find anything the way it's played).  Is this a correct fold and I welcome your comments of how I played the hand.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
lee100	Small blind		10.00	10.00	5000.00
villain	Big blind		20.00	30.00	4980.00
	Your hole cards	9 9
DELTA	Raise		40.00	70.00	4960.00
nobby222	Fold
cross	Fold
TommyD	Raise		120.00	190.00	4870.00
lee100	Fold
villain	Call		100.00	290.00	4880.00
DELTA	Call		80.00	370.00	4880.00
Flop
		J 8 9
villain	Bet		370.00	740.00	4510.00
DELTA	Call		370.00	1110.00	4510.00
TommyD	Raise		1200.00	2310.00	3670.00
villain	Call		830.00	3140.00	3680.00
DELTA	Fold
Turn
		4
villain	All-in		3680.00	6820.00	0.00
TommyD	Fold
villain	Muck
villain	Win		3140.00		3140.00
villain	Return		3680.00

beaneh

meh I probably don't fold. I'd flat the min raise pre and raise more on the flop/get it in then. for oppo to bet call the flop and then jam turn with a bare flush draw i'll just clap and hope to fill up. considering his line he could easily have really silly stuff like AdJx or AdTx something ridic like that. 

The_Don90

Like Beaneh i probably dont fold. Although i must admit i rate you as a player, expessially showing the ability to fold these hands, where as i panic and do the only thing i know best, shove. So theres maybe why you play at a much higher level than me.

Anyways the only thing i personally disagree with Beaneh on my personal opinion is that i like your 3-bet pre flop.

Batkin88

like 3 bet pre and raise on flop u got your info and an easy fold on turn if u rate player i doubt anyone is shoving here with less than a str8 or flush as early in a deepie.

YOUNG_GUN

Looking over i think its a good fold, only other hand i can see them playing this way is Adiamond J which you beat

Personally i'd re-raise little more delta as they min raised make 160-200, then on flop would bet similar shove any non diamond turn. Could easily be against KQ doubt flush so will need to hit, good fold again tommyd dunno whether i could lay it down in the heat of the moment

FINS

Good fold you are behind me thinks.str, flush or set of jacks??

I had this last night with a set of kings, I folded and the guy showed the straight.

Great fold not worth the gamble this early on.One double up and your back where you started,call and your likely to be out.

beaneh

3 betting pre really isn't a very good idea.

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: No choice but to fold a set?:

3 betting pre really isn't a very good idea.
Posted by beaneh

whys that beaneh?

yb

In Response to Re: No choice but to fold a set?:

3 betting pre really isn't a very good idea.
Posted by beaneh

why not?

I would 3bet as well unless I knew that the oppo didn't call 3bets oop light, but I think normally someone min raising here isn't very good.

beaneh

In Response to Re: No choice but to fold a set?:

In Response to Re: No choice but to fold a set? : whys that beaneh?
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

why should we 3 bet with blinds at 10/20 and stacks at 4k.

how many boards do we like with a purrr of nines.

if we are behind is this good

if we are ahead does he continue much

if he does continue what boards does he hit

flat call pre all day long, twice on sundays and 23 times on the shortest day of the year.

there is no read suggesting he will raise and 4bet fold for 99% of his stack nor does it say he raise calls oop and plays terribly and passively and gives chips away.

3betting is baaaad.

dylan12

I fold here tbh Tommy.

Your only beating a bluff here and villain dependant it's a fold most times. It would be a bit spewy for the reg to shove here without the flush, he possibly puts you on a OP to the board or a very strong hand after your 3 betting and thinks you may pay off because of your image.

No need for you to gamble in this spot when your still deep at these Blind levels and you can easily get those chips back with your style of play.

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: No choice but to fold a set?:

In Response to Re: No choice but to fold a set? : why should we 3 bet with blinds at 10/20 and stacks at 4k. how many boards do we like with a purrr of nines. if we are behind is this good if we are ahead does he continue much if he does continue what boards does he hit flat call pre all day long, twice on sundays and 23 times on the shortest day of the year. there is no read suggesting he will raise and 4bet fold for 99% of his stack nor does it say he raise calls oop and plays terribly and passively and gives chips away. 3betting is baaaad.
Posted by beaneh

i dont like just flatting with 9s, i usually re-raise so is that bad re-raising 160-200? obviously need good flop to continue but ill happily get rid of rags and other hands that should be folding

Batkin88

yeah i agree with 3 betting it reps so many hands pre and many times you can play him off the pot without hitting. however if ur point of not 3 betting purely because of blind levels then yes that would make alot of sense. I think the min raise caused the 3 bet tbh he prob just calling an initial raise of 60-80

scotty77

I also don't like the 3bet pre.  First level of these sets are amazing flat call get as many in the pot as possible with 99.

Flop I rasie more.  I make it 1.5k at least.

Given this torunie and structure and our skill advantage over that table then I timeout fold.  It this was the open then no way am I ever folding.

scotty77

In Response to Re: No choice but to fold a set?:

In Response to Re: No choice but to fold a set? : i dont like just flatting with 9s, i usually re-raise so is that bad re-raising 160-200? obviously need good flop to continue but ill happily get rid of rags and other hands that should be folding
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

with 99 we want to set mine.

99 is a good hand at the later stages of the tournie and a snap 3bet.

early stages its like 22 or 45d we want to hit big and get paid we don't want to fold out the blinds in this spot

TommyD

Thanks for all of you comments guys.

The 3bet pre - I'm still set mining here.  The three bet was mainly to pot build a little to allow me to get maximum value through the streets when I hit a set.  You may think 80 extra pre is negligible but the snowballing this makes through the streets is significant.  Add to this me C-betting a 9 high flop with my image normally looks like AK, I pick up a lot of bluff steals this way, and the fact I view min raising on level one as a check that must be 3bet out of principal

If this was anything other than a deepstack I am shoving the flop.

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: No choice but to fold a set?:

In Response to Re: No choice but to fold a set? : with 99 we want to set mine. 99 is a good hand at the later stages of the tournie and a snap 3bet. early stages its like 22 or 45d we want to hit big and get paid we don't want to fold out the blinds in this spot
Posted by scotty77

fair enough, your much better tourney player then me so cant really argue

You can set-mine by raising though imo if someone plays back then re-adjust i just think you have 4 best starting hand so i dont want to just call cheap  im happy to start building the pot pre and re-evaluate, tuesday night in TSP poker classic i tried the other way calling pre and worked against me and have always done ok playing it strong, can you analyse some of my hands scotty i will listen to any advice

beaneh

Young gun, why does you playing it strong a few times and it working make it the right play?

maybe you got lucky those times?!

and you should feel able to criticise/question/discuss anyones opinions. Don't just see a poster has responded and feel like you cant reply. You wont improve if you dont.

TommyD

In Response to Re: No choice but to fold a set?:

Young gun, why does you playing it strong a few times and it working make it the right play? maybe you got lucky those times?! and you should feel able to criticise/question/discuss anyones opinions. Don't just see a poster has responded and feel like you cant reply. You wont improve if you dont.
Posted by beaneh

Big +1 to that

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: No choice but to fold a set?:

Young gun, why does you playing it strong a few times and it working make it the right play? maybe you got lucky those times?! and you should feel able to criticise/question/discuss anyones opinions. Don't just see a poster has responded and feel like you cant reply. You wont improve if you dont.
Posted by beaneh

not a few times beaneh i have probably had 9s 50 times + one of my favourate hands, i can understand why you flat but personally i always bet unless sizeable raise pre. maybe this is due to that im confortable playing this way? tbh the times i flatted wasnt that great as i was expecting a c bet from the opponent but as he didnt i was oop and then 10 comes on the turn and i started betting then, didnt go horrible but personally think im still goin to play 9s how i did before. maybe due to my comfort zone or you being a better post flop play who knows, one example though if your against small pp 22-88, if you call pre and comes down they hit set but 8 low you may lose quite a bit but if some has been put in pre & post then easier to get away from it.  I like as you said discussing hands as i learn more that way and theres always more then 1 way to play so good to get other opinons

ta
John

RedHouse

Hi guys,

quick question.

I understand the reasoning for the three bet pre. However would you still feel the same had the initial raise not been a min raise? any difference 3x or 4x?

I ask cus i have been folding 9's to 4x from UTG. Too tight?